The Importance of Getting Kids Outside

On this episode of Weatherproof, hosts Hannah and Claudia delve into the vital importance of getting kids outside. Claudia, an outdoor educator, shares her firsthand experiences with outdoor education programs and reflects on the valuable skills and personal growth students gain from outdoor adventures. The hosts discuss the prevalence of nature deficit disorder, the benefits of outdoor play for mental health, and the systemic barriers that limit children's access to nature. They highlight the role of outdoor education in fostering environmental consciousness and offer insights into the impact of outdoor experiences on children's interpersonal skills and conflict resolution abilities. Join us as we explore the transformative power of nature on children and advocate for prioritizing outdoor experiences in their development.

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Transcript

Claudia [00:00:00]:
Today, Hannah and I are talking about the importance of getting kids outside. Now you might assume that because you don't have kids or aren't really a, quote, unquote, kid person, this episode isn't going to offer much value to you. But I urge you to stick around because I'm hoping to make a compelling argument that everyone should be thinking about the importance of reconnecting future generations with the outdoors. The hard truth is we all have something to lose if we don't. Welcome to Weatherproof. We are your hosts, Claudia.

Hannah [00:00:30]:
And Hannah.

Claudia [00:00:31]:
Join us as we talk about the raw, real, and relatable elements of outdoor adventure.

Hannah [00:00:36]:
Before we get into that, we're going to beg you to join our email list at weatherproofpodcast.com and to hit that follow button wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're watching us on YouTube, hit that like button and subscribe.

Claudia [00:00:48]:
We are recording on the unceded territory of the Squamish and Liluwat Nations. We acknowledge and honor the stewards of this land on which we live, work, and play. So as many of you know, I am an outdoor educator, and much of my time is spent working with kids in the outdoors. I've worked with a number of different school based outdoor education programs over the years, but there exists a vast array of different kinds of outdoor programs. Some programs take on an environmental and sustainability lens. Others focus on adventure and technical skill development, some are therapeutic, and others still are designed to be reformative. All believe in the transformative impact that contact with nature can have on children. And it's been my life's passion to work with kids in the outdoors.

Claudia [00:01:37]:
So I consider myself very fortunate to be an outdoor educator.

Hannah [00:01:43]:
What do you love about it so much?

Claudia [00:01:46]:
I think I well, for 1, I'm constantly in awe that people are willing to pay me, like, that I can make a salary, a a living wage, by playing with kids in the outdoors. Also, my 1st job was as a summer camp counselor. And, actually, my 1st job was as a summer camp dishwasher, but I gloss over that. My first job was at summer camp. And I can really distinctly remember thinking to myself, if I could do this for the rest of my life, I'd probably be pretty happy. And this feels like the evolution of that dream.

Hannah [00:02:28]:
And so why are you so passionate about having kids spend time in the outdoors?

Claudia [00:02:33]:
Watching anybody experience skill development, or grow their confidence, or discover something new about themselves that they didn't know before, thought that they couldn't do, is, like, magical. And it's such an honor and a privilege to get a front row seat to that kind of discovery. And I think it it's like a it's like a bomb for all of the things that I worry about in terms of the future of our planet and the future of our species and, you know, human nature and kindness and compassion and whether or not, you know, we're treating each other well, whether or not we're, you know, doing our best to be good citizens. Like, when I see kids in the outdoors engaging with each other and with the natural world in such cool ways, when when I'm constantly surprised by what they come up with, by their imagination, their creativity, their resilience, it it makes me feel good about the direction of our future.

Hannah [00:03:44]:
I'm curious. You obviously teach classroom time as well. So you see kids in their kind of normal, comfortable environment at school and then you take them for multidays in the backcountry, do you see a difference in the way that they behave or interact or their personalities from classroom time to on a multi day trip in the backcountry?

Claudia [00:04:07]:
Yeah. So the biggest difference that I see is actually in the kids for whom the classroom environment is not comfortable. My favorite thing about outdoor education is that kids who struggle to fit in to be successful in a traditional classroom tend to excel, in my experience, in outdoor settings and being able to see those students experience success in that way is really cool. Kids who tend to be successful in the classroom can also be successful in the outdoors because they they tend to require and use the same set of skills. Obviously, there are kids who are comfortable in the classroom who haven't spent that much time in the outdoors or aren't naturally athletic or kinesthetic or that comfortable with their own bodies, and that brings with it a whole new learning curve that I think is is really valuable. So the take home message for me really is that everybody stands to gain something from being in the outdoors, from learning in the outdoors, spending time on trip, it's just that that thing might be different for every single individual. And my challenge as an outdoor educator is always to customize student learning, so that I meet them where they're at and get to deliver this learning experience that is unique to their needs. I really love what I do.

Hannah [00:05:43]:
And that is very much coming across. Before we lose all of our listeners that currently don't have children or the ones that have no intention of ever having children in their future, why why should I care as someone that doesn't have kids And is unsure whether I will or will not have kids in the future, like, why do I care about child education in the outdoors?

Claudia [00:06:04]:
My argument for folks who may or may not have kids, are thinking about having kids, will never have kids, don't have anything to do with kids currently, is that getting kids in the outdoors impacts 2 major areas of life that are everybody's concern. One is climate and environmental advocacy. So the condition of our planet and its sustainability is something that should be top of mind for everybody regardless of whether or not you have kids. And 2, healthy child development is something that we all need to be concerned with because those children will eventually grow up to become citizens and what we should all be aiming for are citizens of the world who are concerned with the well-being of our society and who want to be contributing to that society, who are educated, active, involved, engaged, not participating in crime. The argument that I'm gonna make is that spending time in the outdoors is a really strong indicator for someone who's going to contribute to society in a way that everyone stands to gain from.

Hannah [00:07:28]:
And what have you seen in your time teaching, like, in terms of seeing that in play with kids that maybe change from not caring about the environment to caring about the environment or that kind of passion for the world and being a good citizen, how have you seen that play out in the kids that you've taught?

Claudia [00:07:51]:
The biggest way in which I've seen it play out on trip is probably with a group of grade 10 students. They've been a particularly challenging group from a social standpoint, so a lot of conflict within the group, a lot of reluctance to resolve that conflict in meaningful or engaging ways, like most teenagers, they just wanted to, you know, bury their heads in the sand and and walk away and and avoid, like, honestly, the teenage solution to interpersonal conflict is a lot like the adult response to conflict, which is just avoidance. Like, oh, if I just don't engage with this person, if I just avoid this person at all costs, I won't have to experience conflict with them, and therefore, there's no need to resolve the conflict that I have with them. The problem with a group of 20 students who experience a lot of conflict is that they get divided into 2 groups of 10. There's no way to manage that in such a way that they don't have to spend time with each other in very close quarters, like, they're in tents together, they're cooking meals together, like, every aspect of the program was designed so that kids couldn't avoid each other even if they wanted to. And it required kids to work through their shit. And we helped them do that in really explicit and structured ways. The grade ten version of your kindergarten teacher sitting down with you and whoever you are fighting with in the sandbox and explaining why you needed to share toys.

Claudia [00:09:37]:
And I think about that a lot because I don't think that we hold kids accountable in the same way, that that we are able to in that context kind of in everyday life. And I worry about what that means for their interpersonal skill set. Anyway, I digress a little bit. This group of students, our year end trip was 21 days long. That's a long time. Yeah. We were in the field for 21 days, and we faced some really challenging weather and some really challenging conditions. And as you can imagine, when you're pushed like that to the brink of your, like, physical comfort zone mental comfort zone, situations erupt.

Claudia [00:10:27]:
Tensions are running high, lots of complicated feelings, and people lose their ability to control themselves and so conflict ensues. And part of that is intentional. Like, we we structure the program so that hopefully it doesn't always happen but hopefully we can explicitly teach conflict resolution in real situations. And so from day 1 to day 21, we were dealing with interpersonal conflict the whole trip. And sometimes we were really successful in in conflict resolution, and sometimes we weren't. And I think that's like a microcosm of life. So I'd love to say that by the end of the trip, everybody was best friends and, you know, they, to this day, contact each other to tell each other about, like, their successes in their failures and they go on trips together and all these things. Some of them do, but definitely not all of them.

Claudia [00:11:28]:
And I think that's the the best you can hope for.

Hannah [00:11:32]:
Yeah. I think that's interesting thinking back to my experience of school. Yeah. If you had a problem with someone or bullying going on or all of that kind of stuff, you kinda sorted it out in the playground or not at all. Like, teachers weren't getting involved necessarily In your interpersonal conflicts because they don't really see it, because in the classroom, you're probably not having that to the same extent, versus, yeah, 21 days in the backcountry full time, you're seeing so much more of what goes on between kids than what you would in in a normal playground setting.

Claudia [00:12:11]:
Yeah. And I think we could have let kids pick who they wanted to be intense with, we could have let kids pick who they wanted to paddle with every day, we could have let kids pick who they wanted to be leaders of the day with, but we didn't. We intentionally held them accountable to working with different students every day, even the ones that they struggled to communicate with, especially the ones that they struggled to communicate with. And and I think that's really great training. But we also taught them specific strategies to work with those people when they couldn't, you know, get through a sentence without being interrupted or without being argued with or, you know, whatever it was. Like, it wasn't like we fed them to the wolves and just let them fend for themselves. We sat down with them and we talked about and strategized how they were going to continue to be able to work together despite the fact that they had this conflict brewing.

Hannah [00:13:05]:
I can under you know, I can resonate with this. It helps kids be better citizens and have better conflict resolution, which, you know, is well and good. But coming back to the climate piece, which maybe selfishly is something that's maybe a little bit more on my agenda is, yeah, I would really like to be able to save this planet from wherever it's headed, how does this impact kids caring about the planet? Obviously, the the automatic, like, you know, spend time in the outdoors and you might care about it a bit more, we hope works. But I don't know. If you go to Joffrey Lakes, which is a super popular hike in BC and people do a 3 hour day hike, and then you see the state of that place. And you're like, this is supposed to make you care more, but I don't know. Does it? How do you see that playing out with your students going from maybe not understanding or caring about the environment to being passionate advocates for the Earth.

Claudia [00:14:03]:
Yeah. So I would argue that the people who trash places like Joffrey Lakes, do it out of ignorance, not out of, you know, willful destruction.

Hannah [00:14:17]:
Yeah.

Claudia [00:14:17]:
And and that to me is a lack of education. If we can start that education in schools, we're 1 step ahead. But I passionately believe that we protect the things that we love. And in order to love something, you first have to know it intimately. You have to be connected to it. You have to have a stake in it. You have to be invested in it. And introducing future generations to the outdoors is the single greatest impact I can have on climate change in my current capacity.

Claudia [00:14:52]:
Neither you nor I is gonna save the planet on our own. But if we can get kids invested in their future on this planet, if we can start to educate everybody, you know, adults, yes, there are tons of education programs out there to introduce adults who've never spent time in the outdoors to the outdoors. BC Adventure Smart is one of our favorites. We talk about it all the time. But if we can start with kids, like, there are huge markets developing right now in places like China and South America, Brazil in particular, where the focus is on adventure tourism, where environmental and outdoor education programs are starting in schools, we're on the right track. And for adults who don't have kids, who aren't considering having kids, they still vote with their dollars. They still vote for political platforms that have strong positions on things like education. And what I'm hoping is that people will start to consider whether or not they have kids the importance of educating everybody, but in particular, our kids, so that they can start to think about these things regularly.

Claudia [00:16:10]:
I think, you know, the Greta Thunbergs. I mean, she's an incredible example of climate activism being pioneered by the next generation doing incredible things, and she deserves all of the accolades and, you know, if she can inspire and motivate her peers, we, the adults in the room, are incredibly fortunate, but kids, you know, who don't have Greta's gumption, who don't have her commitment, her ability to forge ahead despite a significant amount of opposition, they're gonna grow up to be business owners, CEOs, teachers, doctors, voters who are going to vote for things that really matter to them. And if the environment isn't one of those things, we really don't stand a chance at moving the needle on climate change or preserving our planet and its other species against the voracious human appetite for consumption and greed. And I am biased, but I really believe that that starts with education. It starts with getting kids outside and forming that connection and that love for for the natural world.

Hannah [00:17:28]:
And so, obviously, in your position, you spend a lot of time with kids outside. But have you seen a difference in the time that you've been teaching with how much kids are willing to or want to join in on the program, how much they want to spend time outside based on, you know, changes in the world, social media, all the draws that that make you just wanna stay indoors.

Claudia [00:17:53]:
I don't think I've been teaching for long enough. I really look forward to being able to answer that question again at the end of my career because change is slow. And and I think teaching, much like parenting must be, is a a bit of a thankless task. Because kids don't have the perspective. They don't have enough parents under their belt in the moment to be able to recognize the change in themselves and imagining the ripple effects of the impact of, like, 1 expedition or one kind of chunk of time in the outdoors over the course of a life time, I think takes a lot of imagination. But that's that's what I'm working towards is being able to offer as many kids as I can, even just 1 impactful experience in the outdoors that, you know, will echo through the rest of their lives and and guide their decision making. And what I do know is that students who graduated from this grade 10 program that I loved so dearly at St. George's called Discovery.

Claudia [00:19:05]:
We would typically catch up with them again when they were in grade 12. So they would do this program in grade 10, then we'd catch up with them again in grade 12, and we check-in about their experience and and ask them for some quotes or from for some stories. And it was always the the trips where they faced the most adversity that they remembered the most fondly. And that always kind of galvanized me in terms of being able to overcome or even just entertain all of the teenage angst and complaining and resentment of being forced into the outdoors when they didn't want to, when it was uncomfortable, when it was hard, when it was cold, when they were, you know, angry or hungry or whatever. And that was such a huge lesson for me is no matter, like, a, trust in my ability to recognize when kids were reaching their limits and have a full arsenal of tools at my disposal to support them through those moments, but then endure. You know? Know in my heart of hearts that they were going to come out the other side of this experience so much stronger and so much better off, and that we could talk about that and unpack that on the other end when they were ready to so that they could could see, you know, their growth or their progress or their success in ways that they maybe couldn't see in that moment. And I think being able to go through things like that when you're a kid really supports you in being able to do hard things and overcome challenges where you're not as well supported as an adult.

Hannah [00:20:54]:
Totally. And so through the program, do you see, like, a change in In their passion for, like, outdoor adventure or the climate or the world, like, what kind of experiences have you had in seeing change in the kids themselves?

Claudia [00:21:14]:
I mean, I'd love to say that people go through outdoor education experiences and are all of a sudden all climate activists or avid adventure enthusiasts, and that's just not the case. Like, some kids hate the outdoors. They go on outdoor education experiences. It rains the whole time, they hate them. Or it's sunny the whole time, and they hate them. And they come home, and and they haven't their perspective on the outdoors hasn't changed at all. Whether or not their perspective on themselves and what they can do has changed, I don't know. Sometimes I I am just not privy to that information.

Claudia [00:21:55]:
But I think that on some level, everybody is impacted. And I think the potential for that impact is so significant that there's a strong argument for building outdoor education programs into schools, particularly where we live, but there's also just a strong argument to defend things like recess. Like, there are schools in the United States that have banned recess because it was a waste of time and they were in pursuit of higher standardized test scores, they were like, no. No recess, which, like, I think is unconscionable. But the truth is that there are all sorts of systemic reasons why kids are spending less and less time in the outdoors these days, and academic success is only one of them. There are all sorts of other ones. Like, you know, I'm sure you can think of a couple, but the big ones are there are actually just less outdoor green and natural spaces available 2 kids than there used to be. I was looking even just around Squamish at the amount of development that has occurred in the last 5 years, and our green spaces are getting slowly but surely eaten up, and the less outdoor green natural spaces there are for kids to play in, like, the less access they have to them.

Claudia [00:23:30]:
And the other thing is the fear of litigation. You know? Oh, kids can't play there because they're gonna get hurt, and then their parents are gonna sue us. That is a very real factor, parents are afraid of letting their kids out of their sight. They're not as familiar with the outdoors as their parents were, and so they're more fearful or they're less inclined to let their kids go and be free and wild and roam and play and whatever. You know?

Hannah [00:23:59]:
Yeah. New Zealand, way back in the day, implemented a system That basically means you can't sue. And moving even to Australia and then even more so moving to North America, it's like, I am so grateful that New Zealand has that because of The impact you see on so many things that get taken away because of fear of lawsuits. Because everything's dangerous and everything has risk. Skin, if everything is sewable, then suddenly you can't do anything anymore. So talking about kids spending less and less time in the outdoors, What is nature deficit disorder?

Claudia [00:24:41]:
Okay. So one of the foremost authorities on kids spending time in the outdoors is this American man named Richard Louv. And in 2005, he published a book called last child in the woods. And it's a really great resource for anybody, whether you have kids or not, who is thinking about the impact of the outdoors on kids. And there's a lot there. I mean, if you're a psychologist or a therapist working with kids, like, I would highly recommend you consult this book. I'm sure that you already have. But nature deficit disorder is a term that Richard Louv coined, and he is highly educated, but he's not a medical professional.

Claudia [00:25:31]:
And nature deficit disorder is not a real medical diagnosis, although he argues that it probably should be. But it's a description of the human costs associated with being alienated from nature or being disconnected from nature. And it's used as a way to talk about what many of us consider is an urgent problem and the term has really caught on. And what's scary is that a lot of the things that Richard Louv talks about in his book that was published again in 2005, so quite some time ago now, are have only been further exacerbated by social media. So when he's talking about it, he's talking about the impact of spending like, 3 to 4 hours on the Internet a week, and now kids are spending, like, 8 hours a day on their phones, on the internet, on social media, their consumption of social media is way beyond what he was talking about when he coined the phrase nature deficit disorder. And so if anything, what he was observing has only been amplified since since he started talking about it. Essentially, nature deficit disorder is all of the behaviors that we're seeing in kids that could be associated with or as a result of a lack of connection to nature. And so, you know, childhood obesity and the huge numbers of ADHD diagnoses are 2 of the really big ones.

Claudia [00:27:20]:
And there's all sorts of research, really fascinating research that points to, like, a lack of of time spent in the outdoors, a lack lack of connection to nature as being the culprit for them for those diagnoses. I I could really get into the weeds here, but one of the things so one of the things that Richard Louv talks about is the fact that at the time that he was writing the book or at the time that the book was published, there were two means of addressing or treating, we'll say, ADHD. 1 was with behavior therapy and 1 was with medication. The medication that they prescribe people with ADHD is essentially Methamphetamines.

Hannah [00:28:05]:
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Claudia [00:28:07]:
And has a huge impact on human cognition and can have huge long term effects. Anyway, he was suggesting that there could be, by the time we're having this pot like, we're recording this podcast episode today, enough research that could corroborate a third type of treatment, which would be essentially nature therapy. Think about the impact on our society, if instead of medication or in concert with medication, you were prescribed time spent in the outdoors. And honestly, we saw it during COVID.

Hannah [00:28:44]:
Yeah. People are like, go outside. Doctors in Canada now can prescribe A Parks Canada, like, parks pass for whatever.

Claudia [00:28:54]:
Yeah. Because people have caught on to this idea that actually spending time in the outdoors, like, we all know this. This is, like, common sense now practically, but common knowledge at least that spending time in the outdoors decreases anxiety and depression.

Hannah [00:29:09]:
Or I'm going on

Claudia [00:29:10]:
my symptoms.

Hannah [00:29:11]:
I'm going on my stupid mental health walk for my student mental health, it was like the COVID the COVID thing.

Claudia [00:29:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, people were only allowed to leave their houses in certain countries to go on those walks. So I I think it's a big deal. I think there's enough research to support the idea that spending time in the outdoors is essential to our mental health. More importantly, in in 2012 in September of 2012, the World Congress of the International Union For the Conservation of Nature passed a resolution titled the child's right to connect with nature and to a healthy environment, and it was deemed that it is a human right to have connection with nature, and that, in fact, contact with nature is essential to healthy child development, like adequate sleep, like proper nutrition, like love and attention. And I don't think it's the kind of thing that is as easy to offer or to protect as something like proper nutrition. I'm sure there are parents out there who are listening who are like, do you know how fucking hard it is to get my kid to eat his vegetables? Like, what are you talking about? I assume that everything about parenting is so hard.

Claudia [00:30:40]:
And parents out there, you have my undying admiration, live you specifically. But I think that we need to add access to nature, time spent in the outdoors, to what is surely a long list of things that that is essential to childhood development, and that we need to to think of it that way. You know, that my kid is not gonna be successful or set up in the best way that they can be if they don't spend time outdoors. You know? It doesn't have to be all of their free time is spent outdoors, but they have to have some connection, they have to have some exposure. And I would argue that not only do they need time in the outdoors, but if they can get unstructured free play time in the outdoors, that that's even better. I think we I think we struggle with being overprogrammed and our kids struggle with being overprogrammed. And one of the most amazing skills that kids learn in the outdoors is how to stretch their creativity muscles. And I mean, it's not just creativity, it's imagination, it's ingenuity, it's problem solving, it's learning how to entertain themselves, learning how to stave off boredom, you know, learning how to look around them, engage all 5 of their senses, and make stuff up.

Claudia [00:32:11]:
Be curious about things. Pursue wild ideas and fantastical stories. And, yeah. I don't know. Can you remember being a kid and being outside, letting your imagination run wild.

Hannah [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the big things is, like, we had a backyard, and That's something that most people the average person can't afford these days. In our age group, the amount of the amount of people that can afford to buy a house, let alone buy a house in the backyard, like, you're you're in apartments because that's what people can afford to get. And so there is even just that, like, basic level of less time outside because you don't have a backyard to run around in a safe space with a fence that That you can just spend as much time as you want and your parents aren't worried about where you are.

Claudia [00:33:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, the more the more I think about it, you know, the more grateful and, you know, privileged I understand that I am for having had access to a cottage.

Hannah [00:33:21]:
Oh, totally.

Claudia [00:33:22]:
But increasingly, that's a a goal that is out of people's financial reach. Or people are doing interesting things like choosing to rent but buying cottage property or undeveloped land and choosing to do other things with it in in order to, you know, have access to that kind of remote wilderness, which is amazing. But, yeah, who can afford that in our neck of the woods?

Hannah [00:33:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. We can't afford to buy a house, let alone a second one.

Claudia [00:33:54]:
Yeah. So I think if we can't afford access to the outdoors or there are very restricted spaces in which to access the natural world, it seems to be, to me, an even bigger imperative that schools are offering outdoor education programs. And I don't really know where I'm going with this. I think, as I mentioned earlier, like, outdoor education is becoming more and more prolific in schools, they're still battling a lot of red tape. And running outdoor education programs is logistically complex and resource intensive. So if you have the funds, then great. Kids can have access to the outdoors. It's still something that not enough kids have access to.

Claudia [00:34:57]:
And fighting for those programs or fighting for access to those kinds of opportunities, I I think it's something that we can all do whether or not we have kids. Again, it comes back to making decisions about the education platforms of the political parties that you vote for, it comes down to being active in your communities and participating in fundraisers for organizations that promote healthy and active outdoor programs for local kids, it's, you know, getting getting involved in politics in whatever way that you, you know, feel compelled to, whether that's just donating or it's, you know, donating your time and energy and expertise, perhaps, to protecting both the outdoor spaces and also the access to the outdoors for kids. I was just reading that Carolyn Gleach, one of my favorite professional skiers, has just announced her candidacy for the United States Senate seat in Utah, which is currently held by Senator Mitt Romney, she is a fantastic climate activist. She's part of pal and has done a lot of work as a climate activist in the United States, specifically. She's also a Patagonia ambassador, which is how I came across her to begin with, but she's such a great example of someone who doesn't have kids. She talks about that on her platform, but she is championing the cause in lots of ways to protect outdoor spaces for access for all, and I think can really be, you know, someone that we use as a role model, you know, both for the kids in our lives and also the adults in our lives, she's someone who is making an impact. And coming back to why education is so important, kids in school grow up to be people like Carolyn Gleach. They're gonna be the future leaders of the world.

Claudia [00:37:17]:
And being able to support them in caring for the environment like Greta Thunberg does, like Caroline Gleich does, and and being able to take active roles in order to protect the planet, I think is I think starts with schools, starts with kids.

Hannah [00:37:35]:
Love it. So, obviously, we all learn amazing things in the outdoors, which is one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about getting everybody into the outdoors in terms of ways that it has impacted me and my confidence and feeling like I'm more capable than I thought I was and And just having a little bit more, like, faith and trust in yourself. Like, if you can keep yourself alive in the backcountry for a few days, like, You know, life you can do a lot more than maybe what you think you can. What do you see in kids outside in terms of the skills that they develop, like, I don't know, independence and trust in themselves, like, what do you see in the In your especially, like, your 21 day trips, the difference from the start till the end.

Claudia [00:38:23]:
Yeah. So the list of skills that kids, anybody can learn in the outdoors is is actually, I think, endless. You could give me any situation in which kids are in the outdoors, and I could probably describe the innumerable skills they have the potential to learn. But really broadly speaking, they learn how to use their 5 senses. Right? So they can hone in on the difference between sight, smell, sound, taste, touch, they, at a really young age, learn about things like textures. Like, what better way to understand the concept of sliminess than in, you know, picking up a slug and feeling what it feels like not only to to pick up the slug but maybe to hold it in your hand or maybe if you're really brave sticking it to your face and seeing what happens. Engagement and really honing of your senses I think is something that you can't accomplish through a video game, not all of your senses, anyway. Kids learn technical skills, how to use tools.

Claudia [00:39:33]:
That's, like, manual dexterity. Right? How to hold a hammer or a screwdriver, how to swing an ax, how to hold a carving knife. Kids learn how to paddle a boat. They learn how to swim. They learn how to fish. They learn how to hunt. They learn how to build things. They learn how to tear things down.

Claudia [00:39:51]:
You know, like, we talked about creativity, imagination, problem solving. But, also, they learn spatial awareness. They learn about depth perception. They learn about how their bodies work, how their how their bodies move, the length of their step, their stride, you know, how much ground they can cover if they walk, run, bear crawl, they they learn about their strength. How much strength does it take to pick up a small pebble and hurl it at another big rock? Or, you know, how how big of a boulder is too big for them to lift off the ground. Like, they learn all of these amazing things that they just don't have the opportunity to learn if they're engaged in virtual reality experiences or if they're, again, playing video games or scrolling on social media, even if they see other people do those things, they don't experience and embrace or keep the memory of what it feels like to do that themselves. They learn about cause and effect, what happens if I pull this branch back and then release it and fling it into my friend's face? What happens if I put this stick, like, if I lever this stick into something else to crack something open, or what happens if I put this stick down on the ground and prop it up and then stomp on it? It snaps in half. There's a whole school of thought out there around what's called risky play.

Claudia [00:41:32]:
And this idea that kids need to engage in risky play in order to understand their own boundaries and their capacity. And I came across this incredible resource that is like, 40 different ways to say something other than be careful to mean the same thing. So when you're talking to kids I'm just gonna find it here. The language be careful is actually not that helpful. Right? Because if kids don't have the experience to understand how to be careful, then telling them to be careful is, again, not that helpful. A child is playing at height, you can say something like, stay focused on what you're doing. Or ask them, what's your next move? Do you feel safe there? Take your time. Does that branch feel strong and stable? I'm here if you need me.

Claudia [00:42:28]:
In all of those phrases, you're offering kind of constructive information or important things to consider so that kids can make their own decisions in those moments and that you're reminding them that if they don't feel safe, they should listen to that. Or if they do need help, they should ask for that. 2 things that are, you know, essential, I would say, essential skills for kids to bring with them into adulthood. And by engaging in this risky play or by engaging in outdoor activities, kids have authentic opportunities to learn those skills. I do think it can be a real uphill battle to compete with things like social media. Totally. Like, what I'm seeing

Hannah [00:43:19]:
made to be addictive. Like, they literally designed it to be like a slot machine that becomes more exciting than real life interaction. Like, we experience it as adults. When you're, like, scrolling on your phone, you don't even want to be. You're feeling like you don't want to be, but you're still doing it anyway, let alone without bit more awareness and understanding of the impact When you're a kid, like, you do what feels good. That's what how what's how we're designed as humans. And Yeah. Instant gratification of Notifications and scrolling on Instagram is, like, perfect to fuel that dopamine cycle.

Claudia [00:43:57]:
Yeah. Yeah, and separating kids from their phones is really hard. If you can't separate kids from their phones, then you're being forced to compete with their phones, which we can't do, and then that distraction pulls them away from engaging in these really meaningful ways. We've talked about sort of the more technical what I consider kind of the technical skills in terms of spending time in the outdoors, but we also talked earlier about all of the interpersonal skills. Right? Like communicating with other human beings, the art of conversation. You know, how to dig deep and come up with questions to ask somebody that you have nothing in common with or that you don't want to speak to you or is a total stranger. Conflict resolution. I mean, collaboration.

Claudia [00:44:51]:
Like

Hannah [00:44:52]:
One of my favorite things about, like, the disconnection of being in the backcountry is when you're having a conversation about something and you would normally Google it. And I actually have friends back home in Sydney that have a rule that you have to I don't know whether it's, like I can't remember whether it's, like, 2 minutes or 5 minutes. They have a rule. Like, when you're having a conversation, you're not allowed to Google it for, like, a while so so that you can try and figure it out. And it's a really good way just to, like, not always reach for your phone and and get the answer, like, really amongst your group, try and figure things out. And then in the backcountry, when you're, like, talking about something and being like, oh, I wonder how this works. I wonder how that happens. And you, like, try and discuss it for a while, and then we'll often make notes of, like, things we wanna look at when we get back.

Hannah [00:45:33]:
But just that little bit more of a push to, like, go into the depths of your brain and try and figure something out Without just that automatic, oh, just Google it, and then I've got the answers straight away.

Claudia [00:45:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. I actually love being out of cell reception when you're, like, trying to remember a song or who who sang something or you know? And you're like, ah, like, it's on the tip of my tongue, and it's so gratifying when hours or days later, someone's like, I got it.

Hannah [00:46:03]:
Yes.

Claudia [00:46:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. I really, really believe that the outdoors is such a powerful vehicle for development of human cognitive abilities. And there's research to back that up. Right? Like, it's not just me being, like, oh, I'm wearing my rose colored outdoor educator glasses and, like, spending time in the outdoors is gonna save the world. I mean, yes. That is a very, we'll call it Pollyanna attitude, but but we gotta start somewhere. And, for sure, holding kids accountable to spending time outdoors, holding schools accountable to having outdoor education programs, holding our community developers accountable to protecting outdoor spaces within our communities, if we don't make it a priority, then I think we're really doing the human race a disservice in terms of the dulling of our senses and the loss of some some really significant skills.

Claudia [00:47:15]:
I think as we get ready to wrap up, I wanna share a story. So over the break, I was in Whistler, and we were out celebrating a friend's birthday. And at the bar was a number of my old students, students that had completed this discovery program, and students that were actually in that pretty challenging class. And at one point, we ran into each other, and it was incredible to hear what they were up to. They were all in different cities and they are all doing really fascinating things, they still get together, they still spend time in the outdoors, they still remember the program, they remember and reflect on the impact that it's had on them. And so there is definitely a part of me that rejoices in knowing that they've been changed as a result of their experience in that program and as a result of the experience in the outdoors, and that most days is enough for me. But I do really think that whether we have kids or not, whether we have quantifiable evidence to measure the kind of immediate growth or impact that spending time in the outdoors has on kids, it is in our society and our planet's best interest to defend those spaces, to defend the time that kids get to play, preferably, you know, unstructured and unfettered by adult intervention, so that they can learn and develop and explore and and be kids and get dirty and engaged in nature and however you can support kids in getting outdoors, I really encourage you to do it. It's the thing I've chosen as my career, and it's the thing that brings me so much joy that I highly encourage you to to make it part of your regular routine.

Claudia [00:49:47]:
That's it for me. It's my little soapbox.

Hannah [00:49:50]:
Well, that's it, folks. Thank you for listening. We hope it was time well spent.

Claudia [00:49:55]:
As always, we would love to hear your thoughts on today's episode and all about your own experiences, getting kids outside or supporting kids and getting outside or getting outside yourself, message us on Instagram at weatherproof podcast with all of your stories.

Hannah [00:50:13]:
And if you love today's episode, please share it with a friend, and follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Claudia [00:50:20]:
Happy adventuring.