Confronting Fear: Harnessing Your Mind to Elevate Your Outdoor Adventures

In today's episode of Weatherproof, we discuss the importance of mindfulness in conquering fear and quieting the negative voices in our heads. Hannah opens up about her own struggles with fear in mountain biking and skiing, and her quest to find enjoyment in these adrenaline-pumping activities. We also explore the techniques and strategies that you can employ to overcome your fears and find your flow. 

Listen in as we examine the role fear plays in pushing us to our limits and delve into the power of building trust in oneself, quieting the negative inner voice, and constantly pushing against the boundaries of our comfort zones. Fear may be a powerful force, but we believe it can be harnessed and utilized as a tool for growth and self-discovery. 

Get ready for an episode packed with tips, insights, and personal stories that will leave you feeling inspired and ready to face your fears head-on.

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Transcript

Hannah [00:00:00]:

What goes through your head when you're trying a new feature on your mountain bike, starting down a steep pitch on your skis or you encounter a grizzly on your hike? Fear. It's a powerful force that keeps us safe, but can sometimes keep us small We're here to understand our fear, when to listen to it, when to ignore it, and how to use it to our advantage.

Claudia [00:00:21]:

Welcome to Weatherproof. 

Hannah [00:00:25]:

We are your hosts, Hannah.

And Claudia. 

Join us as we talk about the raw, real, and relatable elements of outdoor adventure.

Claudia [00:00:32]:

As usual, we'd love to ask you to join our email list at weatherproofpodcast.com and to hit that follow button wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're joining us on YouTube, hit that like button and subscribe.

Hannah [00:00:44]:

We are recording on the unceded territory of the Squamish and Lilwet Nations. We acknowledge and honor the stewards of this land on which we live, work, and play. Researching for this episode has honestly been a disappointment. I was expecting to learn all the ways that these brave, incredible sports people controlled their fear by getting rid of it, And they're able to accomplish these crazy superhuman feats by just no longer having fear. And after spending hours reading books, articles or listening to countless podcasts, my fear is not vanished. In fact, the opposite is true. Fear for me is like a worst best friend. My mother is quite a warrior, and so I wonder if I just grew up with this heightened awareness of consequences, like, care full of this.

Hannah [00:01:32]:

Watch out for that. If you do this, then this might happen. It could be nurture or nature. Who knows which came first? So, While life pushed through a lot of it and do what some people might call scary, like mountain biking and skiing, fear is my trusty companion on my shoulder questioning my every move and telling me all of the ways that the next second everything could go very wrong. Claudia, what is fear to you?

Claudia [00:02:01]:

It's such a good question. I experience fear in A lot of different ways. The the one that comes to mind most when you talk about a trusty companion Is actually my FOMO, like, my fear of missing out. And I have a really hard time saying no to opportunities. I'm So busy. My life is so hectic. I really struggle, with, Like, prioritizing things and then saying and then saying no to things, like, just limiting what I commit to because I don't wanna miss out. The world is full of incredible opportunities.

Claudia [00:02:45]:

I love learning new things. I hate the idea that there are only 24 hours In a day, and I need to sleep for, you know, 8 of them, ideally. But That that fear really drives my decision making in so many ways. It's, I think a little bit different than the fear that you're talking about, but the power of fear to affect our decision making is huge.

Hannah [00:03:19]:

Well, and the fear you're talking about is probably partly to with belonging, which, evolutionary, is a Part of surviving. Like, we didn't we couldn't survive by ourselves. You had to be a part of a group to be able to survive, and so belonging is is so important to our survival. And that's the thing about fear is it's so ingrained in us. It's there to keep us Alive, it's protecting us from things that can cause us harm. So in the context of sports like mountain biking and skiing and Kiking in the ocean. It's very much doing its job Don't do this or you'll get hurt and obviously getting hurt is bad for you. But the problem is that then it comes to day to day life like processing or coping with the fear of missing out Or when we're taking risks in the sports that we enjoy, and our advanced cognition is saying that this is worth the risk, But we can't get rid of that fear.

Hannah [00:04:20]:

So what do we do to make sure that we can enjoy the sports? That we listen to our fear and not just ignore it all the time because there's obviously gonna be a line there, But we want to have fun and stay safe.

Claudia [00:04:35]:

Yeah. I mean, what comes to mind when you say that is Like practice. Mhmm. You know, practice makes progress. The more familiar you are with a Setting or an activity, the better you're gonna understand your ability, the more you're gonna be able to anticipate, and mitigate Risk, and so just, like, continuing to log hours in the activity of your choice Is what would make sense to me, but we get so impatient, right? We wanna see Rapid progress. We want to be able to measure how far we've come And feel successful. And so I think we have a tendency to rush things, and then we get into the situation where we're really confronting Maybe more fear than we should or fear on a more regular basis or because we're rushing, we don't trust In our ability because we haven't proven through dedicated practice that that's what we Are capable of.

Hannah [00:05:43]:

And that's that comparison piece coming up of looking at yourself versus, say, an athlete in the same field that you look up to and wanting to be where they are where you're not seeing the hours years of their life that they've put into perfecting their craft. For me, I found that time doesn't solve my fear problem. Mhmm. It's just like this This nagging thing that is always there. Like, I have been down I don't know how many thousands of berms on my mountain bike, and yet even a simple berm every time I'm thinking about how my front wheel might wash out and I'll break my collarbone and so That's been kind of, like, my deep dive into this was I wanted to quieten that voice so that I'm not so scared all the time. And I know I'm never gonna get rid of it just because of my high awareness of consequences. I think working patrol And being a massage therapist, I see constantly what happens when things go wrong. So I can't live in that fairy land of Everything's safe, oh you'll be fine.

Hannah [00:06:53]:

Because I see those outcomes and how much that impacts people's lives and for how long, But I also don't want to be thinking about it around every corner.

Claudia [00:07:03]:

Well, I'm curious. So much of that, I think, is your trust in yourself. Totally. Right? You can acknowledge that that fear and that voice is always gonna be there, but having a response that's crafted, you know, based on Your experience and your your level of comfort, like, from a rational place might be a really Cool experiment for you to conduct, right? Like, you're coming up to a berm, you're listening to that voice and in response to that voice, you say, I've done this Birm a 100 times I know exactly what my front wheel is going to do I know exactly how to make my front wheel do that Here we go. It's like now a conversation with fear in your mind rather than kind of giving into that voice. You can remind it Based on the time that you've spent practicing based on the amount of hours you've logged on your bike, then in fact, like That voice is being irrational.

Hannah [00:08:01]:

Totally. And that's the thing that has come up from researching this and reading so many different stories. What I was surprised to find out was it's not that they don't have fear. It's that they've learned to calm themselves down instantly. And This is kind of both encouraging and disappointing to me because I wanted to learn these tactics so that my fear voice was just, like, gone, I could merely back down a trail without my brain jumping to worst case scenarios. But according to everything that I've read Of the people in these sports that are willing to talk about fear, because a lot of people aren't, is that it's actually not about banishing fear. In fact, that's highly impossible. It's about how you deal with it when it comes up.

Claudia [00:08:48]:

Yeah. I think digging into what you do or how you wrap your head around the fact that you are gonna feel fear, that Fear is a reality and that you have a choice. You can either let it hold you back or you can figure out how you're gonna Work your way through it, achieve your goals in spite of the fear that you experience.

Hannah [00:09:13]:

Yeah. And that's the like, The thing is that they used to think that adrenaline junkies or thrill seekers just feel less fear. They they're doing all these crazy things so that they can pump themselves up with adrenaline and They just aren't aware of their own mortality or they're not aware of the risks that this is posing to them. But current research disagrees that, yes, in some of the fMRI stuff, their amygdala had less Firing because they have a a different process when it comes to fear than the average person, but That in fact, they do have fear, and they are just highly aware of the risks. They're really good at safety. They're very aware of their mortality. But the Difference is that they also have faith in themselves. They do the sports that they do for freedom, for Pleasure for growth for confidence, and it's all the same reasons that we do them.

Hannah [00:10:14]:

They're not doing it to get this, like, injection of adrenaline To make them feel alive because they don't otherwise feel alive because they don't feel fear. They're doing it for the same reasons that we are so passionate about getting people into the outdoors because it makes you feel free. It makes you feel confident being able to push yourself outside of your comfort zone and and conquer your fears because they do have the fears there, which is kind of encouraging to know because Then we can all be Somewhere on the realm of that incredible obviously, I'm not shooting to be Alex Honnold. But If he had to conquer his fear to do the crazy things that he does, then there's hope that I can conquer my fear to do the Very not so crazy things that I do.

Claudia [00:11:03]:

Yeah. Absolutely. That is definitely comforting.

Hannah [00:11:09]:

One of the books that I read was Rowan Van Voorhe's book called Fear, and she argues that these people that we call Adrenaline junkies, we should actually just call fear experts and this is forever how I'm gonna refer to them instead of these Superhumans that are that don't feel fear like I do. It's simply that they're more skilled at navigating it. And my new mission is to strive to be like them.

Claudia [00:11:38]:

Okay. My question though is, is adrenaline junkie not an accurate response? We just misunderstand the source of the adrenaline? Does the body produce adrenaline in response to our fear?

Hannah [00:11:51]:

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.

Claudia [00:11:52]:

Okay. So if that's the case, Then it's not that the activity itself, like engaging in Skydiving or base jumping or whatever is the source of the adrenaline. It's because the person engaging in that activity feels so much fear when they engage in it That they experience adrenaline?

Hannah [00:12:13]:

I mean, yeah. There's this guy called Geordie Sir Nick who had a bunch of tumor stuff in his brain and basically had to get his adrenals removed and he no longer feels fear and That combination of that also means that he doesn't feel excitement because the fear and the excitement Pathway is kind of the same. Like, think about when you feel nervous and you feel butterflies in your stomach or you get the sweats or whatever, versus when you feel excited about something, you feel the same. And so, he doesn't feel either for these people to do the crazy things that they do and get the rush that they get from it. They have to have fear. Otherwise, he they've done some studies on him where he's like abseiled down a 400 meter face and they had all the, like, electrodes stuck to him that track all your sweat and blood pressure and heart rate and all that stuff, which are all physiological symptoms of stress and fear and threat response. And he just is flatlined. Like, there's just nothing crazy.

Hannah [00:13:20]:

Yeah. Wild. Yeah. Because he doesn't have fear. So that's also another thing to think about. Sometimes you can just Interpret your physiological symptoms differently. Instead of thinking, I'm scared, think, I'm excited. And obviously, that takes time and practice, but Knowing that your physiological reaction is the same, therefore, can we just interpret it differently?

Claudia [00:13:47]:

Yeah. And being able to harness Kind of the scale of fear in order to determine our course of action. So, Physiologically, when you are afraid and experiencing, like, a Full body physiological response. It's because you've triggered your innate, Instinctual fight or flight response. Mhmm. Right? So in that state, You're not capable of rational thought because your body takes over your lizard brain, as it's called in Mental health first aid courses that it's incapable of rational decision making. It's Purely instinctual, and it's purely motivated by survival. And so that state, like that physiological state, is different than what you might experience when you're at the top of a rock roll on your mountain bike and you're In this place of, like, do I? Don't I? Am I good enough to do this? Do I have the experience? Do I have the expertise? And what we're talking about there is that that same kind of feeling of excitement and anticipation that that we conflate And that is like legitimately also fear, but way further down on the scale.

Hannah [00:15:18]:

And then the fear response becomes full blown when you're halfway down the rock roll and Your tire starts skidding, and you feel like you're losing control. Then it goes from, yeah, like, nervous excitement. I'm gonna try this. I think I've got it to, like, Panic. And that's where what you were saying about the physiological response is What our body is doing is getting ready for action. We're getting ready for fight or flight survival. So you're increasing your heart rate, your blood pressure, Your blood goes from internal organs to your muscles so that you can run, your pupils dilate so that more light comes in so that you can see clearer, your hearing sharpens, Your digestion slows because you don't need blood working in digestive areas when you need to be running, so that's when your mouth can go dry. We start sweating because our body's ready to cool us down, and that's where you, like, start feeling all these all these things going on where it can change from, Yeah, that anticipatory excitement to like full blown fear and that's where the mental health thing comes in of that physiological response makes complete sense if you're about to die whether it's Crashing on your mountain bike or slipping when you're climbing or running away from a bear, that is helpful.

Hannah [00:16:41]:

But when you're At home or living our day to day city life, we're seeing those instances of that same physiological fear reaction happening then where it's not helpful because we're not fighting or running or chasing. And that's like that mental health piece of being aware of that and when it when a fear response is no longer serving you.

Claudia [00:17:11]:

Yeah. I think I think what's interesting about the sort of surge of Mental health first aid courses is that we are increasing our awareness Around safety in the outdoors to to expand beyond just our physical safety and also include our mental health safety. And so Most of my experience from a research level around fear has been like through these mental health first aid courses where We we were being instructed on how to support someone who was in the midst of a full blown physiological fear response or who was not Capable of making rational decisions or thinking rationally and how to, you know, get them back Into their bodies out of that fight or flight trigger response. I don't know that I've ever experienced like a full blown Physiological fight or flight response. Not at least that I can remember clearly, but can you think of a Time where you were so afraid that you had a physiological response?

Hannah [00:18:21]:

Oh, a 100%. It's definitely happened to me skiing before. I might have been my 1st or 2nd season over the backside of Spankies ending up on a pitch that was, like, too steep for me, and I Froze. Like, I couldn't make a turn. I, like, I knew I had to get down, but I just I couldn't get my body to move, and I was just stuck, like, full blown. If I make a turn, I'm gonna tumble down this and die. Sweats, heart rate, dry mouth, all of that, like, I could not move until Someone, like, very kindly coached me through it, and I eventually made a turn and then was like, oh my god, I survived. I'm fine.

Claudia [00:19:03]:

Yeah. That's that's awesome. Were you able to kind of recognize when you were in the midst of Freeze? Or was it not until you were coached out of it that you were able to recognize it?

Hannah [00:19:17]:

I think it's, like, in that situation It's knowing that a part of it is irrational, but that the fear is like very much real Yeah, and that's what I experience in mountain biking and skiing and all of those things, like, consistently is like frozen, I can't do this, this is the scariest thing, I'm going to die. When realistically my skills are fine, I can absolutely do that and I will be okay. The other time I experience it is, climbing Smartwood Peak in the Kanaskask country in Alberta, In the Canadian Rockies. And it's, like, I don't know, 20, 30 minute scramble to the top. And the 1st time I did it 5, 6 years ago, On the way down, you have to look between your feet to see where to put your foot as you're scrambling down, and you can just see, like, sheer drop off of the meters below you, like, you are just gonna tumble down there and probably die. And I had a full blown meltdown, again, like freeze, Couldn't move like couldn't get my breathing in check. My heart rate was through the roof. I was sweaty.

Hannah [00:20:25]:

I like couldn't see because when you get into a fear response, you get really really tunnel vision And so one of the tips Alex Honnall gives is like, soften your gaze, look around, just be a little bit more aware of, like, what is going on around you? And that of in and of itself will bring your heart rate and your blood pressure down and start to reduce the adrenaline going through your blood. But, yeah, I was definitely in that, like, tunnel vision, shallow breath, sweaty, panicky. I just wanted a helicopter to come and take me off there because I did not want to be there anymore.

Claudia [00:21:02]:

I Love that you have those experiences and continue to cultivate them. Like, that's fantastic.

Hannah [00:21:10]:

And this is why I am so interested in figuring out how to deal with this because I love the sports that I do and I'm going to continue to do them, but it would be really, really nice if I could enjoy them just a little bit more.

Claudia [00:21:22]:

One, so that is such a powerful motivator, being able to rely on what You've called a deep desire to pursue something or, you know, feel a devoted sense of purpose or passion for something that inner fire or intrinsic motivation That is so strong that it puts you in this position where you're willing to brush up against these, like, really intense physiological responses In order to be successful, in order to push through, in order to accomplish the thing that you want to accomplish, that's I feel like what life is made of, right? Like, that's the secret sauce. Because coming out on the other side of that is so incredibly powerful I feel like I'm always chasing those experiences.

Hannah [00:22:21]:

Totally. Yeah. Pushing through things and being proud of yourself and growing that strength and yeah. It's and that's why I still do it.

Claudia [00:22:34]:

I think that you have to be able to to quiet that voice in your head that says These are all the things that could go wrong because the more you place those mental markers On examples of where you were successful and where you overcame your fear and where all of the things that you were worried were going to happen didn't happen, You slowly build a case for that faith or that trust in yourself that these incredibly successful athletes have managed to do?

Hannah [00:23:10]:

And that's part of what I've kind of tried to do. It's like, well, I keep doing this and I keep being fine, so therefore eventually Basically, I'm aiming for this point where I'm good enough that the fear just disappears because all these other people are so good. Like, look at these guys riding Rampage, Like dropping their mountain bikes off 40 foot cliffs. Like, you must get to a point where you're just good enough that you're not scared anymore. And what I've learned through this process is that unless you are exercising your fear muscle as much as you are improving your skills and your strength in your body, your fear is gonna stay there and so That's where some of this stuff is like really cool. One of the things That is a little bit reassuring to me is that when stuff is really stressful, especially, like, suddenly, like, you know when you're in the middle of something and your bike starts sliding or something suddenly goes wrong is Your mind will automatically go to the negative it negative. It's natural. It's how we survive.

Hannah [00:24:12]:

So the way that my brain works is Good and healthy and that's how it's supposed to work. But what I want to do now is replace that negative with different thinking so that the fear doesn't stay there because what I do is Dwell on the negative thoughts and think about the fear and think about all the ways that I could die. But what the people that are pros do is that they Those thoughts come in, and then they have various ways of dealing with how they put those thoughts out of their mind. They have their various methods of Controlling their fear.

Claudia [00:24:48]:

I was just gonna say you mentioned Rampage and not that long ago Kyle Strate sent it huge at Rampage, and he had broken his back A year to the date at the same competition. Mhmm. And I couldn't believe that he'd spent, You know, all of that time in recovery and was back in time to train and get his mind right and recover mentally from That experience and then absolutely crush it at that same competition. I wanted to, like, be in his brain On that run, and I'm so curious about how Athletes who've sustained significant injuries have come back in order to continue to not just participate in their activity of choice, To compete.

Hannah [00:25:49]:

Yeah. And I think that comes back to, like, deep desire and their purpose, their calling, like, What they feel life is meant for them to do. I love the thought that if you want something enough, willpower isn't a problem. Like, you can just Keep working for that thing. And I don't think that's something we can learn. I think we can learn how to overcome our fears and the things that we want to do, But I don't think you can ever teach someone how to have that such innate drive and desire to do something that they will break their back and go back a year later and do incredibly crazy things, as far as what we can see, I think that's just they are just a different breed.

Claudia [00:26:33]:

I like that inner fire analogy because it lends itself so well to all of these things. Right? Like, your fire might be snuffed out by a Injury, but if that spark, you know, persists, that passion or that that Deep desire, like, will continuously spark that fire. And, I mean, everyone's got, You know, a threshold, pain threshold, injury quota, whatever you wanna call it, We're constantly coming up against the edges of our comfort zones and what we can can manage, but I think I think sometimes we let our brains, The the little voices in our heads tell us what we're capable of, and it's the people who end up in those situations and see their way through to the other side that really recognize what they stand to gain and without overcoming those challenges, without overcoming those massive Injuries. You just never actually learn what you're capable of.

Hannah [00:27:55]:

And that's why we're passionate about getting people into the backcountry Because that's where you do learn what you're capable of and what you are able to push through. And and if you're presented with that in a very, like, physical real manner, it's It's awesome to see what you can do, whereas in in daily life, we don't necessarily get that. Everything's so kind of conceptual, or we're working towards something that's so far away, whereas When you're pushing yourself to do a new feature or to climb up that mountain or to ski something scary, it's so, like, Physical and real and right in front of you and something that you can grasp and show to yourself that, like, look what I did. I I can do I can do hard things. Yep. So we're gonna jump into, like, a few of the ways that some of these incredible people manage to control their fears and not let their fears rule their life. And the first one is replacing your negative with positive. And Alexander Schultz is a world record holder for slacklining, and I love his way of approaching this.

Hannah [00:28:57]:

He has this rule where he lets go of everything he doesn't need when he's stepping onto that slackline. He says to only take with you what will help you perform and reach your goal. So leave everything else he has rules that he's not allowed to dwell on anything negative so one of them being like Anger that he's fallen a few times. Like, he's not allowed to think about that. Doesn't matter how many times he falls. He's not allowed to be angry at himself. Any kind of frustration, any kind of insecurity, He just those thoughts will come up because the shocking part is that he's human. And so when they come up, he just fills his mind with positive thoughts.

Hannah [00:29:36]:

You just bring yourself And that activity, and that's, like, all you're aware of in

Claudia [00:29:42]:

that moment. People can't shut up about mindfulness these days. Right? Like, it's so Relevant and topical right now because it's so effective. Right? Being able to harness Our minds quiet those voices, acknowledge and then Push off thoughts that don't serve us. That takes practice too.

Hannah [00:30:11]:

And I love that because it's so simple. Just, again, like, just let that thought go and replace it with something positive instead of having to, like, fix the way you think or change the way you think. It's just Replace it. Like, okay, cool. That's fine. Move it away. Instead of, I'm not allowed to think that, thinking that's bad. If I'm gonna have no fear, I need to not have fearful thoughts.

Hannah [00:30:33]:

It's like, okay, cool. I'm gonna now think about body sensations or whatever thing it is that you use to bring yourself back to the present.

Claudia [00:30:42]:

Yeah. I've been cultivating a practice of guided meditation in the mornings as part of my morning routine, and I find it so grounding, but I'm Such a terrible meditator. My ability to be like, I acknowledge the thought and I let it go is like I'm really in the baby step phases of that right now. But Love it. Yeah. Yeah. In theory, it's easy to acknowledge a thought and then let it go and not have judgment about that thought, but It's a real skill. Yeah.

Claudia [00:31:20]:

And, you know, I'm I'm committed to practicing it because I understand And recognize and acknowledge, like, all of the ways in which mindfulness is helpful and all the ways in which my brain can hold me back, but interrupting that loop, You know, suspending judgment around our thoughts? Like, that's it's so hard. Totally.

Hannah [00:31:44]:

The The next one that's almost the complete opposite is getting intimate with your fear. And so that's about embracing it, getting to know it, knowing That sometimes deep fear gives you important information. Listen to it, what it's telling you. It's not necessarily about giving up on your goals. It's respecting your fear and returning to those goals again until you've achieved them. And I think about this in terms of like ski touring, getting to a spot where something doesn't feel right. Like, listen to your fear. This isn't about ignoring everything Because that's how you die in the mountains.

Hannah [00:32:25]:

Like knowing what is deep fear and what is that fear that you really need to figure out? Why? Why are you feeling that way? What is your body trying to tell you? And do I need to listen to this and really speak up about it?

Claudia [00:32:38]:

Yeah, and I think the idea of using fear as an Opportunity to check-in about your needs and acknowledge that that fear exists because maybe one of those needs isn't being met. And from a ski touring context, like, if I feel fear when I'm out there, I pause and I check-in and I try to figure out if there's information that I can glean from my surroundings that is going to alleviate that fear. Where is that fear coming from? Why does it exist? Is there something that I can do rationally That's going to support me in dissipating that fear. And I don't wanna ignore my fear. I don't wanna ignore any of my emotions. I want to acknowledge them for what they are, you know, the reality of my experience, And then I wanna figure out whether or not there's anything I can do to alleviate those feelings.

Hannah [00:33:46]:

Yeah, and I I think one of the distinctions here is when you're in an activity like Skiing down or in the process of doing the scary thing that can't be stopped? That's when you're putting those scary thoughts aside. But when you're decision making or planning for it, that's when you can dwell on it more and and and have those conversations with yourself to figure out what's going on. If we're skinning up in ski touring, we can talk about it. We can dive into our fears and figure out why I'm feeling nervous. If I'm going around a corner on my mountain bike, I need to learn how to just, like, put that I might wash out and break my collarbone thought to the side and replace it with I can do this.

Claudia [00:34:32]:

So being able to be thoughtful about, like, when those moments of decision, when those moments of Of rational thought are available to you, and you should take advantage of them versus, like, when You're in it, and you don't have that opportunity. How you support your thinking And how you engage with your fear in those moments, they're different.

Hannah [00:34:56]:

Yeah. Yeah. And so one of them is that, like, State of flow, like total concentration when you're in something and you there's nothing else that you're thinking about. And so, as someone that plans and researches and, like you, I fit way too much into my life, I'm always thinking about a thousand things. What I'm doing immediately after this activity, I'm gonna get home. I need to have a shower. I need to get changed. I need to get x, y, and z done before I run out of the house and move on to the next thing.

Hannah [00:35:26]:

And so this not only takes the joy out of what I'm doing right now because I'm not totally present, but it also risks injury because you're not Focused on what you're actually doing. And Cedric Dumont is a Red Bull BASE jumper, arguably one of the most dangerous sports in the world. And contrary to the popular belief that bass jumpers don't feel any fear, he does. But to ensure that These feelings don't result in a failed jump, which with BASE jumping would be fatal. He ensures that no other thoughts enter his mind except the ones about what he's doing. So, he has mastered this art of flow, A practice of living in the now silencing his busy mind, like, hyper awareness, hyper present in his body, and Everything in his immediate vicinity. And so, things like if he makes a mistake, not going over the mistake, focusing on the present moment, Rather than what's really easy to do when you, like, mess something up is just, like, keep playing that over and over and over in your mind as you're doing whatever you're doing. And it's just Being in the now.

Hannah [00:36:43]:

And another thing that I love about this is I'm really bad when I'm biking or hiking or ski touring, and I'm going uphill of thinking about what's next. Like, I'm really struggling up this hill, and I know that there's a massive hill coming, and I'm so nervous about This next hill, and I'm gonna feel really shitty because I'm not as fit as I wanna be, and that hill is gonna be a real struggle. And It doesn't matter. Just be in the present. Just practice full focus on what I'm doing right now. And The reality is that every time I get up the hill and it's fine and I will struggle with it while I'm in it. But if the rest of the time I'm fully present on When I'm in, then I get to have the times when we're skinning along the flat, and it's not a real struggle, and I can just enjoy that. And then I can struggle through the moments where it's hard, and And that's okay too, but just staying staying in the now.

Claudia [00:37:45]:

I think a lot about how Our society has really vilified emotional discomfort, physical discomfort, hardship, struggle. These things are judged as being bad and to be avoided at all times. And if we're struggling, then something's missing or we're not doing it right or we're wrong or we're Bad people or we should judge ourselves because we're not fit enough. Like, I really am trying to cultivate a mindset of gratitude around when I find things hard because Those are the instances in which I stand the most to gain. I learn more about myself. I gain more confidence. I am so grateful when it's over. Everything that that lies on the other side of those moments is positive.

Claudia [00:38:55]:

And so I hate that we are Robbing ourselves of things that are challenging because we've been told that we should. That discomfort is, you know, To be avoided at all costs. And if we can just be present, like you said, in every footfall, you know, it's like I've committed to doing this thing. I am having a hard time right now, but I just have to put 1 foot in front of the other. And Eventually, after enough, 1 foot's in front of the others, I will get to the top and it'll all be worth it.

Hannah [00:39:36]:

I love that idea, gratitude for the privilege that we have of the struggle. Like, obviously, it's totally different if you're struggling to put food on the table are some of the struggles people face in their lives, but the struggles that I face in my life tend to be struggles of privilege, whether it's, yeah, outdoor discomfort or even just, like, Pushing myself to do things in my work life or my personal life that are uncomfortable and scary, but be grateful that I get to do that. I really love that thought. So, funny little quote I wanted to leave you with on the the state of flow and total concentration piece Mhmm. By Cedric Dumont is, For the what ifs, they are useless. They cause stress and concerns while they are too vague to be answered. You cannot predict the future. It is always possible that things will go wrong whatever you do, and the more time you spend on considering all of those what if' possibilities, The less time you have left to focus on the present moment.

Hannah [00:40:32]:

When these come up, don't try to answer them. Just feel the sensations in your body. And I am gonna try and adopt that in every possible aspect of my life, and I will report back in a few months on how that's going.

Claudia [00:40:46]:

Okay. Do you have a concrete example, though, of, like, what that's gonna feel like or look like the next time you encounter it? Like, rather than Thinking of applying it to every aspect of your life, like, give me one example where you've thought that through.

Hannah [00:41:01]:

It would be like the hiking and biking kinda situation where It's always playing that, like, oh, but what if my wheel goes there? Or I'm coming up to I can think of a particular corner, a particular rocky corner, where I struggle to do it every time I come up to it because what if my back wheel doesn't follow my front wheel and it goes down the side over there and then I fall off? And, like, Logically, that's not going to happen because the way that physics works, that's just the way that this corner is. That's not going to happen, But I cannot get that out of my head. And so I love this idea of what ifs aren't solvable. They're so vague. Just stay in the present and think about the sensations in your body. And so I'm gonna try and do that when I'm riding my bike.

Claudia [00:41:48]:

Love it.

Hannah [00:41:50]:

The next big one is visualisations, which if you've read or paid attention to kind of pretty much any athlete, Even public speakers, all those kinds of people practice this visualization thing where we're visualising success. We're visualising ourselves going down something and doing it perfectly. But there was kind of an interesting level that came into this, and That is about not necessarily always just visualising what goes perfectly because, obviously, we want that in our body because Brene Brown talks about how your body doesn't know the difference between real and imagined. So, if we're imagining something Bad, our body actually remembers how that feels, and so we have to be careful with playing negative outcomes. I used to do this when Approaching a hard conversation, I would think about all the possible ways that this conversation could go and all the reactions that the other person could have, and I thought that this was being prepared. That way Right. No matter what they said, I was prepared for that. But, actually, what it meant is that my body was Seeing rejection and upset and conflict.

Hannah [00:43:04]:

And when it actually came to the conversation and they it was fine, My body had already experienced all this negative stuff and didn't know necessarily that that wasn't real. And so, I like the idea of just not Playing all this negative stuff out in your mind because it's it's stores in your body. But the way that some of these sports people use it is that They visualise the ways in things that can the ways in which things can go wrong on, say, a really technical climb, but then they're also visualising what they're going to do to solve that problem and So They'll go through everything in their head visualising this whole climb and all the possible things that can go wrong and solving each problem as they go so that their body has the memory of what to do when things go wrong. And then once you've solved all the problems in your mind and you're in the thing, Then that's when negative thoughts are traded for positive ones, mantras, body awareness, whatever the thing is that you do to stay in the present moment. And I like that because negative thoughts are designed to keep us alive. We had to pay attention to everything. We had to be aware of everything because that was about survival. And so we can use that really powerful tool we have to figure out all of our backup plans so that We can be safe, and and I definitely use that.

Hannah [00:44:30]:

We've talked about using that in planning for backcountry trips, going through all the possible things that could go wrong To make sure that you have those redundancies in place if things do go wrong, but don't stop believing your negative thoughts. Use that planning as empowerment?

Claudia [00:44:49]:

Yeah. I think it's a really nice way to feel Prepared to manage, let's say, like, a whipper or a fall on a climb And build some, like, intellectual muscle memory Without having to actually take enough whippers and falls to feel that and experience it physically. Right? Like, There's something about building muscle memory in response to likely things that will go wrong In order to be ready to, like, trigger that response when it does happen versus just, like, dwelling in the Oh, my God. Things are gonna go wrong. Things are gonna go wrong. Things are gonna go wrong. And kinda getting stuck in that loop. That's, like, not productive.

Claudia [00:45:48]:

Yeah. But dwelling on and visualising, like, how you're gonna get yourself out of those situations, that feels productive.

Hannah [00:45:58]:

And this I think this feeds, like, well into training your fear muscle both in mindset visualization, but also in practice so You're obviously not going to practice every possible thing that can go wrong because some of them you're hoping don't go wrong but if you can train your fear muscle also at home in visualization but as well in situations that closely mimic what you're going into. Because if we're just training at home, then we're not really getting the full physiological reaction. So Climbers will practice falling so that they get that, like, feeling of falling until that feeling of falling doesn't feel Too scary anymore, and then they'll fall from bigger heights and bigger heights depending on what they're training for. And I like that about training Training your fear in, like, a really practical physical way. So many sports practice falling in various ways So that they can do it safely and so that it's less scary. And just like muscles, if we want to train our muscles, we Lift heavy weights, and we stress them. And we kind of injure them a little bit, and then they heal stronger. And we need to do that with our fear.

Hannah [00:47:10]:

And it's not like you go from 0 to a100 because then you have A fear injury where the next time you go to do that thing, you're gonna have that panic attack kind of response because you've terrified yourself.

Claudia [00:47:22]:

Yeah. Just like Traumatized

Hannah [00:47:23]:

yourself. Do it little bit at a time so that when you get those signals of increased heart rate or sweaty palms or whatever the fear responses that you feel the most, you're able to interpret those stories in a helpful way instead of going down there. I'm feeling this physiological response. Therefore, I I'm gonna fail it's like okay cool I'm feeling this I can deal with that I've practiced this before

Claudia [00:47:55]:

Yeah. I think my experience of learning how to snowboard And continuing to push myself snowboarding is a great example of what you're talking about. Like, I joke that I'm Really good at falling. It's like a skill that I'm proud of because I've practiced it so much, And I've really only injured myself significantly, like, twice in my snowboard career, Which as a recreationalist who spends, you know, every waking moment in the winter doing those things, like, seems pretty pretty reasonable.

Hannah [00:48:36]:

Yeah.

Claudia [00:48:39]:

But at the end of the day, if I haven't fallen a couple of times, I I genuinely feel like I haven't pushed myself enough.

Hannah [00:48:45]:

Mhmm.

Claudia [00:48:46]:

To me, falling is, like, a natural symptom of pushing yourself at just the right level. You know, like, you don't wanna be eating it Consistently all day long, like, maybe there are some things you need to tackle before you engage in that level, but I think if you're pushing yourself Appropriately. Learning how to fall is a is a natural byproduct.

Hannah [00:49:11]:

Yeah.

Claudia [00:49:11]:

Building that That trust, that faith, the knowledge that, you know, you've got 10,000 falls under your belt that have taught you, you know, What not to do and what to do and have also trained this, you know, response physical bodily response to Getting yourself out of those situations, like, it's kind of the best of both worlds.

Hannah [00:49:35]:

Totally. And That leads us into rehearsal and confidence, and that's where you get that confidence from. It's no surprise that Alex Honnold comes up in his conversation, the man who free soloed El Capitan in Yosemite National Park, a climb of 29 100 feet or 884 meters. It has been speculated that he doesn't feel fear and he's actually had fMRI studies done on his brain but it's untrue and it's also argued that What he's doing is so insanely dangerous, which, yes, to you and I free soloing 800 metres up in the air without any ropes or any safety Back up, fail safe, anything. That's really scary. That's really dangerous. But it's kind of the same as you or I getting in a car. He rehearses this an insane amount.

Hannah [00:50:31]:

He's not just jumping on first go and giving it a shot. He climbed That route over and over again with ropes on until he was so completely and utterly comfortable and confident that he could do it without falling. And That's not just physically practicing. It's also mentally practicing because he's practicing that feeling of fears coming up and how he handles The response when he does get stressed. And if you want to stay calm under pressure, or in this case, control your fear when you're in a scary situation, The theme that keeps coming out is practice practice at home visualising practice putting those negative thoughts aside replacing them with positive ones and practice in situations do stress you out, like him climbing with a rope and then before he actually free solos. And He talks about like feeling that bolt of fear moving through your body and you can't climb safely when you're petrified. And so This is where he talks about when you get that like real fear reaction don't attach meaning to it. So Instead of something happening and then we get scared and then everything beyond that is Everything beyond that is impacted because we're telling us this story about how we're going to fail or we're going to fall or something's going to go wrong.

Hannah [00:51:58]:

He he talks about this softening your gaze, Looking around you, just taking a little bit more in so that you can relax yourself and not let that story run away with, I'm gonna fail. It nearly went wrong. You nearly fell. But now you have every chance of success, so don't let that near mess impacts everything from then on. And the human part of this that seems so crazy is If Alex Honnold feels fear when he's gonna approach a free solo, he doesn't do it. He listens to fear. His body if his body says no, He doesn't do it. And I think of this as applying it to, like, big exposure stuff when I'm skiing or mountain biking.

Hannah [00:52:46]:

So, like, no fall zones when you're skiing. If you're skiing above a cliff and if you fall, you're gonna probably break something. Or approaching, like, a really big feature with a lot of Exposure on your bike. Or, again, if you fall, it's probably gonna be pretty consequential. And I've always thought that people just don't have fear. Like, they're so ballsy for doing that but this teaches me that It's not about feeling the fear and doing it anyway it's about being confident in your ability knowing that it's within your skill level or not doing it. So it's not feeling the fear pushing it aside it's Doing it when you're ready and that feels so much Easier to me not that I necessarily am ever gonna feel ready to do some of the things that I want to do but But to know that people feel the fear and don't do it because it's not it's not safe for them, it's just a nice way to to feel like things are possible.

Claudia [00:53:47]:

Yeah. I mean, I think what I love about practice Is that it's a form of preparation, and preparation for you and I is so on brand. Right? We love to be prepared. And so The response to feeling fear is asking yourself the question, have I prepared for this appropriately? Am I ready to do this based on my previous experience, based on my practice, based on my preparation? And if you can answer yes confident confidently to that question, then, you know, The choice is yours. You can move forward or not, but, you know, I I would feel really confident if my answer to that question of am I prepared to do this is yes, I'm going for it. If my answer is, like, no, I'm poorly slept. I'm, you know, not properly fueled. I'm feeling off in all sorts of ways.

Claudia [00:54:51]:

My, You know, gear is, like, not in the right shape. Whatever, you know, whatever the answer to your to your no, Whatever reasons for your no, don't do it. Yeah. And and that is, like, That is taking into consideration. It's acknowledging your fear, but it's not letting your fear Or the presence of fear dictate what you're gonna do. Yes. And that, I think, is cool.

Hannah [00:55:22]:

So researching everything about fear has been really eye opening to me. I've always been jealous and just assumed that other people don't have fear and wish I didn't have fear myself. But that's not the whole picture. It's this combination of fear exposure, getting used to the feeling, being able to quickly push fear aside instead of focusing on it or letting it run wild in your head, trusting your ability through practice, and a realistic understanding and confidence in your ability. By exposing ourselves to situations in which we have to calm ourselves down, our comfort zones will expand over time. And I wanted to leave everyone with a final quote from Alexander Schultz and that is Reflecting on fear has taught me how much we can accomplish by using our mental Hours. I am not talking here about anything mystical. All I mean to say is that if you find yourself in a challenging situation, it helps to talk yourself It helps to talk to yourself in an encouraging way.

Hannah [00:56:21]:

Likewise, you can ruin things for yourself by thinking or talking negatively to yourself. I believe a lot of our failures in life are the result of negative thoughts or convictions. Your thoughts are a force of energy, a force that can make you win or lose.

Claudia [00:56:39]:

So much in this episode to reflect on. I So enamored with this idea of recognizing the power of our thoughts And still having the opportunity to choose what we do without feeling enslaved, You know, to those thoughts

Hannah [00:57:01]:

Mhmm.

Claudia [00:57:02]:

To those feelings, thank you so much, Hannah, for all of your research. It's very cool to engage with, and I hope that all of you listening found it as Interesting and fascinating as I did.

Hannah [00:57:21]:

We would love to hear your thoughts on today's episode and all about your Fear stories and things that you've done to overcome your own fear. Message us at weatherproofpodcast on Instagram.

Claudia [00:57:33]:

We've had such great responses from you about our recent episodes, and it's so, So lovely and so motivating to get, your takes on the conversations that Hannah and I have. So Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you loved something about today's episode or a previous episode you've listened to. Share it with a friend And, as always, tune in next week.

Hannah [00:58:04]:

Happy adventure.