Overcoming Perfectionism & Procrastination: Strategies for Taking Imperfect Action

Welcome to Weatherproof, the podcast that explores the intersection of outdoor adventure, mindset, and personal growth. In today's episode, your hosts Hannah and Claudia delve deep into the fascinating world of the two interconnected phenomena of perfectionism and procrastination. Prepare to uncover insights behind procrastination, the impact of perfectionism on goal-setting, and the challenges faced along the way. As they share personal anecdotes and experiences, you'll gain a newfound understanding of how to navigate the often tumultuous journey towards greater productivity and self-acceptance. 

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Transcript

Hannah [00:00:00]:

Do you struggle with consistency? Tried every motivational method and worked really hard on your self discipline only to make yet another commitment to yourself that you simply don't follow through on. Well, we see you. We hear you. And we're here to share ways we manage this in our lives and how you can too.

Claudia [00:00:17]:

Welcome to Weatherproof.

Hannah [00:00:19]:

We are your hosts, Hannah.

Claudia [00:00:21]:

And Claudia.

Hannah [00:00:21]:

Join us as we talk about the raw, real, and relatable elements of outdoor adventure.

Claudia [00:00:26]:

See. Before we get into our episode today, we are going to ask you to join our email list at weatherproofpodcast.com and to hit that follow button wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're watching us on YouTube, hit that like button and subscribe for more fun episodes on outdoor adventure.

Hannah [00:00:43]:

We are recording on the unceded territory of the Squamish and Lillooet Nations. We acknowledge and honor the stewards of this land on which we live, work, and play. So I'm a big goal setter. For almost 2 decades, I love sitting down to make a plan. I'll plan my daily schedule, saw my weekly check ins, my quarterly yearly goals, the amount of times I've, like, written out a a life plan and not so much in where I wanna be in 5 years because I never really know what that looks like. But I'll write in vivid detail about how I wanna feel, what I wanna be doing, what my I want my day to day to look like in, like, 2, 3, 5 years from now. Because there's some evidence to say that if you write about feelings, spell out your dreams, you're more likely to stick to them. Science has proven that smart goals written down are the most likely to be actioned.

Hannah [00:01:36]:

And yet And what are smart goals again? Like, specific, measurable, actionable, something else, and timely. Very detailed. And yet over and over again, I failed. Regardless of the specifics of the goals or how much desire I have for the dream, I just keep failing in my consistency, struggling to show up for the future that I want. And so diving into this in a lot more detail in the last year, I've made discoveries that have really helped me to build my consistency, but also, more importantly, my trust in myself. Are you a procrastinator? Do you struggle with perfectionism? How do you manage it in your life?

Claudia [00:02:19]:

Yes to both. I have, Like, vivid memories of being a child and having put off, like, major Homework assignments, like, huge projects, projects that would take, like, 20 hours worth of work until the night before they were due, and my mom Just, like, losing it. And then to her credit, like, hanging out with me until 2 o'clock in the morning while I finished gluing bits of, like, toilet roll to this Medieval castle we had to build in grade 9 social studies. Like, it was ridiculous. And, the number of just, like, Tearful conversations that my mom and I have had as a result of, you know, the consequences of procrastination.

Hannah [00:03:13]:

It's been

Claudia [00:03:14]:

a lifelong journey, for sure.

Hannah [00:03:16]:

And how do you manage it in your adult life? Obviously, we kind of we go through that uni phase where you have, like you have such specific deadlines at school and university where things are due at certain times and you're marked on it and it's kind of measured. Whereas in adult life, a lot of stuff is more self motivated. And it's you working towards your goals or you trying to be the best at your job, but no one's necessarily watching over your shoulder quite the same as what they are when you're younger. How does it present for you now?

Claudia [00:03:50]:

It's interesting when you're a teacher because The impact of feedback that you give students is like, decreases rapidly The longer it takes for you to get that feedback back. So a better way to say that is If it takes me as the teacher a really long time to provide my students with feedback on the work that they've produced or the quality of their participation in An activity in class, the less effective that feedback becomes. And so all of the work that I've put into the feedback is Kind of irrelevant if it doesn't get back to students within a reasonably short amount of time. I have a stack of essays That I've been looking at and avoiding, like, since the 1st week of school. We're like 6 weeks into the school year. But there's something about the stack that I wanna tackle all at once. And If I don't see a big enough chunk of time in my day to get through those, then I just, like, set that task aside, and I turn towards something that I can accomplish in the time that I have. And rather than, You know, just chipping away at that stack 1 essay at a time, there's something about the task that makes me feel like I have to Accomplish it all at all at once.

Claudia [00:05:21]:

And that, I think, is the real, like there's something about that mindset that just, like, you know, causes me to shoot myself in the foot every time. They'd be done if I had just done 1 a day since the minute I got the stack.

Hannah [00:05:36]:

See. And that's that perfectionist all or nothing type of approach. If you can't do it perfectly, if success is not guaranteed, then you just you can't do it. Yeah. I feel like I've read all the self help and productivity books on perfectionism and procrastination that there are.

Claudia [00:05:57]:

That's impressive. Because every time I'm in the airport, I'm like, oh, there's another one. That one looks cool. Maybe that one will have secrets that will allow me

Hannah [00:06:04]:

to unlock my procrastination tendencies. And so much of it focuses on, like, if you structure things better, if you have better discipline, it's all about motivation and discipline. You've gotta use all these tools and to keep everything on track. Skip. If I just plan better, I'll stick to it better. But it's that classic treating the symptom instead of the cause. And the problem with that as well is that it makes it worse. Because what I've discovered is that procrastination is a feelings problem rather than a discipline problem.

Hannah [00:06:43]:

It's like a mood regulation challenge. And so when we pile on the negative, like, you you are not disciplined enough, you just can't stick to your plan, then you just feel more shit. And then because procrastination is an avoidance solve those negative emotions. We just avoid it even more because, well, I feel shit that I didn't do it, and now I'm not disciplined. And so that task now has even more negative feelings about it. And so now I'm just gonna avoid it even more, and it's like this vicious cycle.

Claudia [00:07:13]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a lack of clarity around how I'm going to accomplish something Really contributes to my procrastination. And so that idea that the outcome is uncertain, Like, I'm not sure if I'm gonna be successful or not. I'm not sure how I'm gonna tackle this problem. And so, therefore, like, success Really isn't guaranteed. Because if I don't even know how to start, then, like, how am I gonna know what I'm up to when I'm doing the task? And then it's just, like, layer of uncertainty on top of layer of uncertainty. And I wanna get as far away from those feelings as I can because feeling uncertain is is not something I like.

Claudia [00:08:04]:

I like knowing what I'm up to.

Hannah [00:08:06]:

Totally. And that's one of the solutions that we'll get into a little bit later in the episode is about that certainty piece, because it removes some of that angsty, negative, not knowing what you're doing kind of feelings. And one of the things about the perfectionist approach to is it's an unrealistic expectation, like you're gonna get all those essays done in in one go, when often, even if you did have a chunk of time, chances are you'd be drained after an hour or 2 and you'd need to do something different. But we just have this expectation that, well, if I just sit down, I can I can do it? And so in Thomas Caron's book, The Perfectionist Trap, see. He talks about perfectionists setting these, like, rigid, lofty goals, like, where we kind of shoot for the stars. But in doing that, we shoot ourselves in the foot. That was unintentionally saying shoot twice. And one of the things that has been really interesting to, I guess, figure out for myself is that over the years of doing this, like, having all these tasks that I wanna do, setting all these goals, doing all this planning, and then just subsequently not reaching them, and consistently not being consistent is I've strengthened the muscle of not showing up for myself.

Hannah [00:09:21]:

Mhmm. When you build a habit, you continue to do it and it becomes automatic. And I've built the habit of just not showing up and committing to things and not doing them. And I love the analogy of the trust marble jar. Have you heard of, like, the the relationship bank account or the marble jar before?

Claudia [00:09:44]:

Yeah. You and I have talked about it. But, I mean, explain away.

Hannah [00:09:49]:

So it's this idea that whether it's a relationship oh, generally, it's about a relationship where you have this jar. And as you do things that build love or trust or, you know, positive feelings and all of that kind of stuff, you're putting marbles in the jar. And then when someone breaks the trust or does something that's upsetting or you are emptying the jar. You're throwing all the marbles out of the jar. And we do that with ourselves when we're not showing up for ourselves, when we set a goal or a plan. Like, I'm gonna go to the gym 3 times a week at 7 AM. And it comes to the next morning, and you're like, actually, I just wanna sleep in this morning. You're throwing all your trust marbles out.

Hannah [00:10:32]:

And so my trust marble jar with myself was empty. And the crazy thing is trust is such an important part in a relationship, and yet trust in yourself is almost set the foundation of trust in other people. And so this Yeah. The starting block the big thing for me with changing that around was making things small enough that I will actually show up. And instead of setting those rigid, lofty goals where I want used to do all these things perfectly. And I've planned out this day where I'm gonna go from one task to the other and get everything done. It's like, make it small, make things really, really achievable, almost, like, stupidly small. I like James Clear's see example, when he's talking about habits of, like, floss 1 tooth, that's ridiculous.

Hannah [00:11:21]:

But instead of trying to floss all of your teeth every day, just, like, floss a couple and just build the habit of pulling the floss out and doing the flossing. And then you'll build the habit instead of making it so hard at the start. And for me, that's been about building that showing up muscle, filling that trust jar so that the automatic reaction is the art of showing up instead of just always kind of quitting on yourself.

Claudia [00:11:46]:

Yeah. The the floss 1 tooth rule reminds me of the 1 push up rule, Which I've encountered, I don't know, somewhere along the right way in my self help reading. But It was, the premise was that the guy who came up with it committed to doing 1 push up a day. Just 1. And, I mean, Anybody can do 1 push up a day. But what he found was that he'd get down on the ground, he'd do 1 push up, and he'd be like, oh, I can do a few more. And so all of a sudden, he was not doing 1 push up every day. He was doing, like, many.

Claudia [00:12:23]:

And then eventually, as his Strength and stamina grew, he could do, like, a 100 push ups. And it's it's the same concept with my essays. Right? As if I just tackled 1 essay A day, I would probably be like, oh, I've got another couple in me, or I've got 1 more in me. And the total number would dwindle. I'd get Through that task much faster. And it's it's funny, like, what our brains do To our decision making. Like, how we rationalize those things in those in those moments. And when you think about it, it really does come down to Letting ourselves down.

Claudia [00:13:02]:

You know, we say we wanna do something or we commit to a task. We kinda form this vague idea of when we're gonna accomplish something in our heads, And then we find all sorts of reasons why we don't wanna do that, and we just push it off.

Hannah [00:13:16]:

Totally. And the thing about setting the bar so low at 1 push up or 1 essay is that you can do more, but if you only do 1, you haven't failed. Whereas the perfectionist is the all or nothing. I have to sit down and do all of the essays at once to be successful. And so, therefore, I can't start until I'm guaranteed success. I'm guaranteed that I can finish them all, instead of I just have to do 1. And if I end up doing 5, that's fine. But my commitment to myself is just 1.

Hannah [00:13:50]:

So provided I've done 1 today, I've not failed. And then it's removing that, like, negative thing that perfectionists get stuck in of fear of failure. I don't wanna fail, so I'm just not gonna try. Yeah. I find it with biking, I have this real all or nothing approach to mountain biking because I feel like I should be riding new trails all the time. I live in Whistler. The trails that I can pedal to on my mountain bike it it's just insane. There's so much to explore.

Hannah [00:14:20]:

I've lived here for 6 summers now, and I haven't done even close to 50% of them. And so therefore, every time I'm riding, I need to be riding new things. But new things is kinda scary. It can be really hard often. I don't necessarily wanna ride new, especially hard trails, by myself. And so then I often won't ride. Because instead of just going and riding the trail that I know, that I feel comfortable on, that's maybe blue, tacky, it's kinda easy, it's an easy pedal up. Instead of just going and writing, say, Chekemas, which I love, it's like, well, no, because you need to be doing new challenging things.

Hannah [00:15:00]:

You need to be getting better all the time. And if you're not getting better, then just don't go. And it means that I ride less, and it's insane. Just get out there and enjoy it. Just make the make the thing just getting out of my bike. And that can be half an hour. It doesn't have to be a 3 hour massive mission ride. I can just go out for half an hour and do cut your bars because that's 5 minutes from my house, and it's a 15, 20 minute loop.

Hannah [00:15:25]:

That's fine. Just removing that massive barrier of perfection and achievement and everything.

Claudia [00:15:32]:

Yeah. It's funny. I've stopped saying practice makes perfect Mhmm. Because I feel like that Really fuels my perfectionism in a way that's not helpful. Instead, practice makes progress Is the new line. Yeah. And I think that's fantastic. Like, actually, if it takes 10000 hours to reach mastery level in anything, Doesn't matter what trails you're riding.

Claudia [00:15:59]:

You just have to log the time.

Hannah [00:16:01]:

Totally. The other thing that I do is if I've decided that I wanna do something, and I used to be really bad at this with my writing, I wanna write every day. And so if I've missed a chunk of time where I've not been writing every day, then I'm like, but there's so much to catch up on. Like, I need to fill in all the blanks. And so because filling in all the blanks is too hard and I don't have time right now, that big chunk of time to sit down and finish this project, then I just I can't do it. And instead of just starting where you're at every single time, just start where you're at. Even if you've missed a few days, even if things aren't exactly where you want them to be, just start today and just keep starting today. Just keep meeting yourself where you are instead of try to make it so hard to just get back and get back to being started.

Hannah [00:16:51]:

Now that I, like, notice these things see. And I'm aware of the feelings that come up. When I don't have the 3 hours you go on a bike ride or I feel myself being like, oh, no. I need to make this all perfect before I can restart this suggest, I'm much better at catching myself and being like, I can just do 5 minutes. It just just do something. Because as soon as those feelings come up when I'm like, no. I I can't do this because it's not gonna be perfect. It's like, no.

Hannah [00:17:17]:

Remember, it's okay. Just just one little lap on the back. That's fine. It's still getting out there.

Claudia [00:17:23]:

Yep. Well, so you are you noticing a difference Then in your commitment to yourself and and refilling that marble trust jar?

Hannah [00:17:34]:

Yeah. I'm definitely getting better at showing up for myself because I'm making it not such a big deal. One of the other things that's that's really clear in my life is going to the gym. It used to be if I'd stuffed around at home for too long and didn't have the full hour to do my full workout, it was like, oh, I won't go to the gym today then. I'll go tomorrow. Whereas now, it's like, if I have stuffed around at home and I I only have half an hour, I'm just gonna go to the gym and do half an hour, and that's better than nothing. Yeah. Because it's it's the art of showing up.

Hannah [00:18:06]:

Because the goal then is rather than the goal being, I wanna go to the gym and I wanna do mobility and then my full workout and then stretching and then go to work. It's like, I just wanna go to the gym 3 times a week.

Claudia [00:18:17]:

It almost doesn't even matter what you do at the gym as long as you make it there because you'll do something.

Hannah [00:18:21]:

Yeah. Totally.

Claudia [00:18:23]:

Yeah. So, I mean, we haven't really gone over the definitions of these things. But, like, procrastination is the art of putting off until tomorrow what you could do today. Well, how would you describe perfectionism?

Hannah [00:18:37]:

Perfectionism is something that I used to wear with a badge of honor. I'm a perfectionist, which means that I produce amazing work, and I always achieve high standards. But actually, perfectionism means that I often don't do things because say, I'm too scared of failure. Because that's really what perfectionism comes down to is you have such high expectations of yourself that unless success is guaranteed, you can't do it because it's not gonna be perfect. And that's really what perfectionism is, which is crippling and pointless Totally. Because we're all human and we're never gonna be perfect all the time.

Claudia [00:19:14]:

And so do you think that often those 2 go together, that they're Symptoms of one another?

Hannah [00:19:21]:

Yeah. So I cannot remember the numbers, but it's not absolutely correlated. You kind of expect it would be, but there's definitely people that are procrastinators that are not perfectionists and people that are perfectionists that are not procrastinators. But I know for me, they are very, like, tightly woven in together, for sure.

Claudia [00:19:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm the same. They're they are very connected for me. In fact, I find it almost unbelievable that they don't present the way that they present in me For everyone who struggles with either or. Like, they're they're so tied. Is there a scientific or a biological Explanation for procrastination or perfectionism?

Hannah [00:20:05]:

So procrastination, they've done some fMRI studies where they do brain scans. And people that procrastinate have a larger amygdala. Now whether it's chicken or egg, I'd you know, what comes first? Who knows? But amygdala is responsible for your fight or flight response. So that's, like, your negative emotion center, basically. So they suspect that people that are chronic procrastinators are more sensitive to negative emotions. Which is why when you feel bad about a task, whether it's that that task is stressful or you're unsure about it or there's something in you that doesn't wanna do it, you just don't do it speak because your sensitivity to that negative emotion is higher than someone who doesn't have that enlarged amygdala and can just push through the discomfort a little bit easier.

Claudia [00:20:57]:

Yeah. There's a really great TED Talk about procrastination. I often play it for my students because procrastination is something that we talk about all the time. Theirs, not so much mine. But it does come up when they're like, where are our essays? But I do recall the brain scans and that enlarged amygdala. And I don't know. Do you find it comforting to know that there's, like, a biological reason whether it's a chicken or the egg situation?

Hannah [00:21:29]:

Totally. As you know about me, I always love to know the why. Like, I wanna know why things are happening. And so it's really nice to be able to explain it. And especially, I feel like it removes a little bit of the the fault or the blame or the or the self shaming that comes with procrastination. Yeah. It's like, okay. There's somewhat of a reason for this.

Hannah [00:21:53]:

It doesn't mean I can't change it. It doesn't mean say, I can't work on it. But it's not just because I'm a lazy person that doesn't wanna do anything. Because that's kind of where that sometimes that dialogue gets to is you're just lazy. Like, just go and do the thing. And you're like, but it I didn't it feels, like

Claudia [00:22:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I know for a fact that we both have really great worth work ethics when we're invested and focused and Hyped on a task or on a particular skill development piece or whatever. But it's crazy how crippling procrastination and perfectionism can be when I am up against Negative feelings. I have about a task. And then my work ethic disappears, my focus disappears, and all of a sudden I'm like, woah. Why is this So hard.

Hannah [00:22:51]:

Yeah. And the thing about procrastination is they've actually been able to look at it. And because it's so commonly talked about being like a laziness problem, just skip get off the couch and do the thing. But a lot of the time, people that are procrastinating, they're actually doing other things. It's not that you're just sitting on the couch and watching Netflix. The classic story is university where I would clean my entire house and reorganize my wardrobe and make food for the next month instead of doing my assignment. And so it's not that I wasn't being productive. It's just that I'm not doing the thing that's actually the most important thing for me right now, which is the assignment.

Hannah [00:23:32]:

And that's such a typical story of suddenly because you have this difficult, uncomfortable task in front of you, you're doing a 1,000 other things that don't really need doing. You're doing the things other things on your to do list that you've been putting off for ages, but they feel less negative than assign and that you don't wanna do. So suddenly, cleaning cleaning the house from top to bottom feels really good.

Claudia [00:23:57]:

Yeah. Sometimes I really resent how busy I am because it doesn't allow for those big chunks of time that I want to dedicate to Those more challenging tasks or the tasks that I'm procrastinating, and that doesn't feel good either. And then I'm like, okay. I just wanna clear the decks. Like, I wanna cancel all of my plans. I want to, you know, not go away this weekend. I want to stay at home and just commit myself to, like, spending all day Saturday grading these essays, which, like, is also not the answer. And I can guarantee you that even if I did cancel all my plans and cleared the decks, I would still wake up on Saturday morning and find a 100 other things that definitely needed to get done that minute, and I would've, you know, continued to procrastinate.

Hannah [00:24:52]:

And that's where becoming aware of the feelings has made such a difference for me. Rather than this idea of discipline, push through, motivation, whatever the answer is, you know, just put it in your diary, make the plan, and then you'll stick to it, is noticing those feelings. When I'm going to do a task and I'm avoiding it and I'm doing all these other things instead of the thing I'm supposed to be doing, I'm better now at being like, what is going on? What is it about this that I'm avoiding? What is it about this that I don't wanna do? And acknowledging that instead of we just, like we see discomfort and we, like, run the other way. It's facing it and and asking a few of those questions. Where is the discomfort in my body? Where is it coming from? What's it saying and why? One of my favorite examples of procrastination is when you're camping and you need to pee in the middle

Claudia [00:25:45]:

of the night such a good one.

Hannah [00:25:47]:

And you're, like, warm in your sleeping bag. You don't wanna get up out of your sleeping bag. You don't wanna put your boots on and have to walk to wherever. And so you just lie in bed, and you try and sleep and pretend that you don't need to pee. And you wake up every, like, half an hour or so or whatever because you need to pee until eventually, the discomfort of needing to pee outweighs the perceived discomfort of leaving the tent. And so you get up and you go and pee and you go back to bed, and you're like, you realize the discomfort of getting up was way less than the discomfort of staying in bed. And you should have just gotten up earlier and peed, and then you would have slept so much better.

Claudia [00:26:25]:

Saved yourself the hours of agonizing over the decision. Right? Like, that's the worst part for me is being, like, I know I should get up And go pee, and it'll be fine. And then I'll just get back to sleep, but I don't do it. And then I just go over that, like, loop for hours. Totally. Until finally, I'm so sick of myself and I'm so sick of that loop that I'm like, get up. And then the next time

Hannah [00:26:50]:

you go camping, you do it all over again.

Claudia [00:26:52]:

Oh, yeah. I've devised insane rules For how much liquid I can ingest in the evenings and how many times I need to go pee before I Get into my sleeping bag in order to avoid that experience. And so it's like, okay. It's 6 PM. I'm gonna stop drinking fluids. Like, no tea, no water. Like, but I'm thirsty. Like, it just doesn't make sense.

Claudia [00:27:21]:

Just get up and go pee.

Hannah [00:27:23]:

And it's such a good example because we're really bad at predicting our emotions. So we think this discomfort of getting out of the tent is gonna be horrendous. Like, it's gonna be so awful to get out of your sleeping bag and and to put your boots on and to go and pee. And then when you come back to bed and you get back into bed and you're comfortable, you're like, that wasn't that bad. And that's because we predict that our negative emotions are gonna be stronger and last for longer than what they are. And and that's a perfect example, but it applies to everything. When we think about starting a task and we're putting off starting that task because it feels shitty or whatever it is in us just is trying to avoid it because there's some kind of negative emotion associated with that, we feel like it's insurmountable, and this is gonna be such a terrible experience. And then inevitably, as soon as you start, you're like, oh, this is fine.

Hannah [00:28:17]:

And Yeah.

Claudia [00:28:18]:

Or it sucks for the first half hour or for the first bit, however long it takes to accomplish the task. But by the end of it, You're like, oh, that wasn't really that big of a deal. And now I feel very successful. What what was the big deal?

Hannah [00:28:34]:

Totally. And avoiding things just makes it worse. And it's that negative feedback loop that we talked about of, you know, you beat yourself up for procrastinating, and then the negative feelings about the task get worse, so being kind to yourself about the fact that you've procrastinated on it is really helpful in getting started. I definitely struggle with that one because it's, like, cognitively dissonant to me. I'm like, but, no, you shouldn't have done that.

Claudia [00:29:04]:

Yeah. I've kinda made it over that particular hump. Like, I don't feel shame around procrastinating anymore. I don't, you know, beat myself up so much. Like, I I've lived with it for so long now and encountered, you know, so many of the consequences associated with procrastinating that I've been much better at not necessarily staving off the procrastination, but just, like, recognizing and see. Acknowledging that it's, like, part of what I do, particularly when I can't see my way through to the end of a task. And so then my Solution has been to include the process of how I'm gonna figure out how to do the task in The accomplishing of the task itself. And so I feel successful when I start to do some research or when I start to do some planning.

Claudia [00:29:59]:

And that is the, like, baby step that gets me out the door or through the 1st essay or, you know, whatever. And That's been a productive strategy for me. It doesn't work for every task. But typically, when the alarm bells start going that I, like, am putting something off because I don't know how to do it, Then I'm like, oh, okay. I recognize this situation. Like, let me sit down and and figure out what I'm gonna do first. Yeah. Do you have any strategies?

Hannah [00:30:33]:

One of the times that I do this, like, that's so silly, is skiing. I really relish slow mornings at home. Mhmm. I love getting up. Like, I'll get still get up at 6 AM, having a cup of tea, reading my book, doing some writing, cleaning up whatever it is, just like slow mornings at home. And, obviously, in winter, the mountain opens pretty early, spend. The best skiing generally is in the morning. And so if I kind of get stuck in the slow morning thing because one thing for me is that I really struggle with changing states.

Hannah [00:31:08]:

If I'm in my comfortable at home feeling state, the the getting out the house to go outside and go skiing state feels like this insurmountable hurdle to get over. And so I'll get

Claudia [00:31:19]:

The transitions.

Hannah [00:31:20]:

Yeah. So I'll just do more at home and stay at home for longer until the point where I'm like, oh, it's so late, and I should've gone skiing earlier, and I didn't go skiing earlier. And then then the perfectionist thing plays into, like, well, there's only 2 hours left to the ski day now, so you may as well just stay at home instead of just going up for the last 2 hours. And so one thing that I've gotten better at doing now is just noticing that and acknowledging it when I'm getting stuck in that not wanting to change states thing or when I'm starting to get beating up on myself about the fact that why is it 11 AM on your day off and you're not up the hill yet. Like, what have you been doing? You've been fucking around all morning. What's wrong with you? I'm like, okay. That's fine. We wanted a slow morning.

Hannah [00:32:03]:

Dragged out for a little bit longer than what maybe it should've. But we're just gonna get our ski stuff on, and we're gonna go up the hill, and we're gonna enjoy the sunshine in the turns with whatever time we have left in the day. Whereas I used to get really stuck in like, well, you've wasted the day. Well, whatever. And then I'd end up just staying at home all day. But I'm way better now acknowledging the feelings and then just being like, right, just do what you can with what you have left.

Claudia [00:32:30]:

Yeah. Or even using those moments as opportunities to check-in and be like, what do I want to do?

Hannah [00:32:40]:

Yes. Speak.

Claudia [00:32:41]:

Because I have this idea that I'm supposed to be up the hill shredding the gnar, and that's Kind of the last thing that I wanna be doing given that I'm feeling really happy and fulfilled here at home, examining that Need to be on the mountain? You know, even just in that split second, like, what do I wanna do? Because I think that's a good way to let yourself off the hook. Right? Like, you don't have to go up the mountain every day. Like, your day off is For you. And and sometimes the right thing to do is, like, push yourself out the door because you know that that's what your body needs, and you're gonna feel really good As soon as you, you know, get in line to get on the gondola. But also, like, in the grand scheme of things, What does it matter if you have a day at home instead?

Hannah [00:33:32]:

And that is such a brilliant point because it's definitely something that I struggle with is that juggle of, am I just staying home because I don't wanna leave the house or I'm, you know, stuck in this state of just being at home? Or am I staying home because actually I'm exhausted, and I just need to be home right now, and that's the right thing for me to be doing? That's probably still a bit of a trust issue for me, whether I can trust myself being like, no. I I wanna stay home today. Because then later on, I'm like, why did you stay home today? And so that's still a a work in progress for me, definitely, of of the shoulds, letting go of the I should be up there and really trying to dive into what do I actually really want? What am I actually really feeling right now?

Claudia [00:34:19]:

Yeah. I have a real fear of regret, and I think that often creates conflict In those moments where I don't really know what I want, and I'm thinking about what future Claudia is going to regret, wish She done instead, and that is, like, a losing battle. There's no there's no winning that, like, What is future me gonna wish I did instead? Game, like so that's that's the the compassion towards myself that I'm trying to cultivate right now is In those moments where I don't really know what I want, but what I'm doing feels pretty good, as long as I have Been hydrating and gotten enough physical activity. I'm I'm trying to just lean into Feeling good about how I'm spending my time, regardless of how I'm spending that time.

Hannah [00:35:15]:

And that's part of what you've said is, like, that acknowledgment piece. Because Professor Fuchsia Sarois has a fantastic book on procrastination. And one of the things she says to do is notice the feeling, acknowledge it, name it, rather than just avoiding it. It's naming and acknowledging those feelings, and then that allows you to figure it out. Saw. Whether it's I'm avoiding this because I don't wanna go outside or whether it's I'm avoiding it because I surely just wanna stay at home today. That process of naming and acknowledging is a really good one for figuring that out. And it also just it helps with your procrastination as well.

Claudia [00:35:58]:

Yeah. Outdoor trips, particularly long Trips or extended trips? I think I feel really successful on trips because procrastination just doesn't Really factor in. I I hardly ever feel those feelings of of procrastination Or even perfectionism Yeah. When I'm out in the field. And I I suspect that that's because I've really embraced this idea that we can't control all of all of the variables in the outdoors, and so the unexpected Is expected. Yeah. And I know I'm gonna need to be flexible. I know I'm gonna need to implement plan b, c, d.

Claudia [00:36:46]:

I know that things are gonna come up, And they're gonna rock me a little bit, and I'm gonna have to figure out, you know, how to pivot.

Hannah [00:36:54]:

You can't be a perfectionist when there's no guarantee of success. And in the outdoors, there is no guarantee of success. You don't know what's gonna happen, and so you just roll with the punches instead of trying to make everything be perfect.

Claudia [00:37:06]:

Right. And I think the trick Is to figure out how I apply the same rules in the outdoors to my day to day life. But so far, I haven't managed to make that cross over.

Hannah [00:37:19]:

And that's where sometimes the outdoors is a great escape from all of the things that we wrestle with in our day to day life, because it is that kind of life or death type stuff. Not that you're necessarily dealing with life and death all the time, but it's where you're getting water spend where you're setting up your tent instead of all the decisions that you normally have to make in your in your daily life.

Claudia [00:37:43]:

Yeah. The one exception, obviously, is the getting up to go pee in the night. But Yes. If I stop drinking at 6

Hannah [00:37:54]:

said and I go pee 3 times before I get into my sleeping bag.

Claudia [00:37:55]:

It's not a problem.

Hannah [00:37:58]:

Yep. You mentioned it before about the clarity piece, and that's a really important one. Because when we're avoiding a task, one of the things we can do is help it with clarity. Because when something feels unclear, murky, that's when our negative feelings about it can get higher. So really drilling down to exactly what needs to be done next. And the way that I implement that into my daily life now is instead of I put everything in my calendar, and that's how I manage my time. It really helps me to kinda stay on track, which didn't used to work before I addressed the feelings piece. But now that I've addressed that, it works a lot better.

Hannah [00:38:41]:

Obviously, not all the time. But when I'm putting chunks in my calendar for something, instead of just putting kind of a vague title and this 2 hour block of whatever I need to do, like, say, podcast, I will put in a specific thing that needs to be done first, and that's kind of what the block is titled. Cool. And so that means that instead of it being like, I know that there's so much stuff that I need to get done in this 2 hour piece see and that's scary. It's like, I know what I need to start with. And so I'll put that thing first, and then I'll have a list of the other things I wanna get done. But it just stops it being this black hole of scary time, and it it helps it feel easier to get started.

Claudia [00:39:28]:

Yeah. That's a great strategy. I love that. I started doing this a while ago as a result of a reading that I did, but I would prioritize my to do list with the most challenging tasks or the tasks I wanted to do the least, like, the tasks I was most likely to procrastinate at the beginning. And then those were the things like Like, a max of 2 things, those are what I would tackle first thing in the morning when I'm at my most productive. Yeah. And then I would do the easy kind of feel good tasks after lunch when I hit my typical kind of, like, midday slump And don't really have the actual or the physical energy to tackle anything, like, particularly challenging.

Hannah [00:40:19]:

And the thing about that as well is it's momentum. You're getting something really scary off your plate first up, so it gives you momentum. It it also means that you don't have that scary thing hanging over your head that you're then trying to avoid all day. You're, like, kick started, and you're proving to yourself, I can do scary things. This feels really good. I'm gonna keep doing scary things. Yeah. Interestingly, perfectionism also has a task of when it's from lack of certainty.

Hannah [00:40:45]:

But what we said earlier is it's about certainty of success. So both things we're avoiding because we're uncertain. Procrastination, we're avoiding because we don't really know what we're supposed to do, and that feels really scary. And then perfectionism, if we're not certain that we can succeed, then we'll were not gonna do it. And they did a really interesting study, which kind of made me feel better, where they got perfectionists and non perfectionists used to do a timed task. And at the end of the task, they were told that they didn't achieve it in time, so they need to do it again. And the perfectionist didn't try the 2nd time. The non perfectionist tried harder the 2nd time than they did the 1st time because they failed the 1st time.

Hannah [00:41:32]:

Whereas perfectionists, because they failed the 1st time, we're like, well, not gonna try now because I'm not guaranteed success. And that's where the effort piece gets pulled out. We're not willing to put the effort in. We're not putting the effort in because success isn't guaranteed. And then instead of doing a little bit or getting started on that task until you have to move on to the next thing, we just avoid it altogether. And that's where you get in you can get in when you've got the combination of both of them into that really toxic cycle of putting something off because it doesn't feel certain and then not having enough time to finish it see and not being successful in it and then not wanting to put more effort into it. And and then you're just spending all this time not doing the things that you know are gonna lead to the life that you wanna live or improve your life or get you better at whatever the things are that you're trying to do. We just avoid at all.

Claudia [00:42:24]:

Yep. Yeah. I don't know if you have experienced this, but In my kind of procrastination, perfectionism cycles, especially around, let's say, gym attendance, I Get to a point where I get so sick of myself in those moments where I've put things off or I've, like, bailed on Whatever it is I've said I was going to do, that I kinda think of it as my rock bottom in terms of, like, my procrastination of that particular thing. And once I hit that rock bottom, once I've, like, hit that quota, I am insanely motivated To, like, do whatever it is that I've been putting off. And then I have, like, a sustained amount of focus to apply to that particular area. I get really successful, and then I kinda hit this, Like plateau of success, and then the other things that I've been procrastinating as a result of prioritizing this thing that I was procrastinating start to fall by the wayside. And my conclusion is that we're just too busy. Like, there are just too many things that we're trying to focus on at the same time, see.

Claudia [00:43:38]:

And there's not enough time in the day to do them all justice. And so at any given time, you end up picking, like, at Whatever the 3 most important things are to you in that moment or the things that you've been procrastinating the most at that moment. And it's, like, Physical activity, like nutrition, hobbies, friends. Like, there's, like, There's so many things.

Hannah [00:44:03]:

And I think that's part of getting comfortable with failure. So one of the ways to help with perfectionism is used to do things that you are gonna struggle with and that you are gonna fail at. And sports is a great way to do that. Because just getting used to the fact that you're not gonna get everything perfect all the time and actually failing at things is just human. Like, we're all human, and that's see. And that's totally fine. The other big thing that's changed for me is small, messy action. Instead of focusing on big, perfect action all the time that's inconsistent.

Hannah [00:44:40]:

So I need all this time to do it absolutely perfectly, and then I'm gonna do this big thing and it's gonna be fantastic. It's like small, messy action. Because the thing that this has showed me so clearly over the last many, many years is that waiting for the perfect time to do everything, achieving all of your goals all at once, all of those different areas of your life that you wanna be managing and juggling and doing perfectly, if you wait for a time when you can do that, it just never happens. Whereas Yeah. If you're just putting that effort sit in into those areas that you can right now and making the messy action in those areas. And then when you realize there's other areas that are missing you, put some more messy action into those areas, the ultimate outcome is so much further forward than always waiting until you've got the perfect plan and everything's gonna work out exactly how you want it to. Yeah. I think for procrastinators, the hardest part is the start.

Hannah [00:45:40]:

And for perfectionists, the hardest part is an imperfect outcome.

Claudia [00:45:46]:

Yeah. Both of those things sound terrible. I hate starting, And I hate it when success is not a a sure thing.

Hannah [00:45:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I try and remind myself now, use the time and resources I have available to do what is possible rather than waiting till I have everything in line to do it perfectly. And then I'm like That's great. Small imperfect action adds up to a lot more than big perfect inconsistent action. Small imperfect action.

Claudia [00:46:18]:

Yeah. I think in my head, I've translated that to just baby steps.

Hannah [00:46:22]:

Yeah. Totally.

Claudia [00:46:23]:

Yeah. Like, Whatever it is. Baby steps. Can I break the thing down into a 1000000 tiny, accomplishable microtasks In such a way that, like, each one is just a a bite sized morsel rather than, like, a huge bite? What's what's the baby step? You know, if if this is the goal, if this is the big, perfect, successful outcome, What's the 1st baby step?

Hannah [00:46:52]:

Absolutely.

Claudia [00:46:54]:

Because I think much in the same way, we're really bad at overestimating our feelings Or were you know, what you were saying earlier, like, we're we're really bad at accurately gauging the magnitude of our feelings, especially when we're being sensitive to see negative emotions. We're also really bad at gauging the distance between where we are at in this moment and That big, perfect, lofty goal or outcome that we want to get ourselves to. We tend to think that that gap is much smaller than it might actually be. And then the reality of how far away we are dawns on us, and the procrastination monkey rears its Ugly head.

Hannah [00:47:39]:

It's the famous quote that's been attributed to a few different people of we overestimate the amount we can achieve in a day and underestimate the amount we can achieve in a year or 10 years?

Claudia [00:47:52]:

Yeah. Just start with 1. Floss that one tooth. Yeah.

Hannah [00:47:57]:

The thing with procrastinators, because of that whole amygdala negative emotion thing see. So when we're stressed, we can only really focus on the now. Like, we're very present focused. We can't think about the future. And one of the ways that perfectionists deal with the stress of the now is that we think our future person is a superhero. Were like, oh, she'll do it tomorrow. Oh, she'll be better next week. Because that person is like we're not connected to them because stress is focusing on the now.

Hannah [00:48:28]:

We're not connected to this future version of ourself. And so she's capable of all this stuff. And so one of the things that I say to myself constantly now is make future Hannah's life easier. Make future Hannah's life easier. Nice. And it just helps me take those, like, little actions now rather than, oh, it's fine. She'll do it tomorrow. Because see won't do it tomorrow because you've given her way too many things.

Claudia [00:48:57]:

To circle back to why I don't think procrastination and perfectionism impacts me as much in see the outdoors as it does when I'm kind of in my day to day life, is that I'm always thinking about Making life easier for my future self because of the risk factor. Right? Like, when I'm out on trip, I'm always thinking and doing the things ahead of time that are going to set me up for success just in case something happens. And that same kind of I, again, like, want to apply that same mentality to my day to day life, But instead, I do the opposite. I'm like, oh, tomorrow morning, Claudia, is gonna be so much more focused and alert than I am right now. So, like, I'm just gonna leave these essays to 6 o'clock in the morning. I'll set my alarm. I'll be refreshed. I'll get my coffee, and I'll tackle those essays.

Claudia [00:49:56]:

Which, like, in what world? Like, I I'm I might actually do it. I might get up, and I might do free. But it means I'm sacrificing my morning routine, which I also really love, to feel, you know, rushed and under the gun before I even start my workday? Like, that sucks whether I'm a superhero or not.

Hannah [00:50:19]:

Totally. The thing that I think about with all of this is, like, a re rewiring challenge. Like, I don't wanna be like this forever. And so part of what has really helped me to change those things and and put those trust marbles back in the jar and show up for myself is really starting to drill down to those feelings, noticing the feelings, reminding myself that I'm capable. And just, like I I call it kind of exposure therapy of just practice pushing through. You get that discomfort and you take the 1st step, or you're not sure that you're gonna succeed, but you take messy action anyway. And it's just by doing that over and over again, you're rewiring your brain. You're changing your habits.

Hannah [00:51:03]:

And then the next time that discomfort feeling arises, you know what it is. You're like, oh, that's me not wanting to do that uncomfortable thing. Let's acknowledge and realize why, and then let's just do it anyway. And I've just noticed doing that instead of focusing on using better tools and planning better and setting better goals and being clear on what I want, just being able to notice the feelings and practice pushing through and just doing it over and over again has made such a change in my life. And I'm by no means perfect, and there is so much work to do. But I am building my trust in myself, and I am making future Hannah's life easier instead of always assuming that she's so much better than I am today.

Claudia [00:51:51]:

I'm curious too. Like, I I wonder At the very beginning of what you just said, you said, I don't wanna be like this for the rest of my life. And I wonder if Even that is your perfectionism being like, procrastination and perfectionism are bad, and I wanna be Perfect. And so I need to figure out how to eradicate these things from my life rather than potentially working on your rewiring and and putting structures into place and starting to acknowledge and recognize patterns, but also cultivating some level of acceptance That, you know, you might struggle with procrastination and perfectionism.

Hannah [00:52:35]:

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. See. It's the I must overcome rather than I accept. I think that's another juggle is that juggle between growth and pushing and getting better and being better, and also just, like, accepting who you are and being content with where you're at and finding happiness in just what life is right now?

Claudia [00:52:57]:

I am constantly surprised at all of the ways in which I judge myself That I didn't even know I was judging myself. And I think that, like, every time I come across another one of those things, I'm like, oh, yeah. This is my need to be perfect. This is my lack of acceptance for anything short of Wildly successful. This is a symptom of me needing to prove to whoever That I'm good enough. And that that's so interesting.

Hannah [00:53:34]:

Totally. Yeah. Is this something that I wanna do for me, or is this me just trying to trying to, yeah, be good enough for everybody else or be good enough for myself?

Claudia [00:53:44]:

So In summary, what would you say are sort of the best ways to get the ball rolling on A task that we're procrastinating.

Hannah [00:53:56]:

I think the best thing is just acknowledging the feelings that are around it instead of coming at it with that approach of discipline. Make things small enough so that you can do it easily. So if it is something like you've wanted to go to the gym consistently for ages, or you've wanted to mountain bike every day and you're just not. Make it so easy for you just to show up for yourself so that you're building that consistency and trust in yourself, your commitment to yourself, and so that you can put those marbles in the trust jar of knowing that that you can just show up. And part of being okay with just showing up is being okay with small imperfect actions. So removing that need to do everything perfectly and to its fullest extent. Even if you're tired, you don't have enough time or energy to do everything as well as what you wanna do it. Just do it anyway because small and perfect actions will get you so much further than just sporadic, perfect ones.

Claudia [00:54:58]:

I love it.

Hannah [00:54:59]:

The big thing is that feelings piece. Like, just acknowledging the feelings, feeling them, naming them and knowing that they're there and why they're there and and what ends up happening when they come up, and then that just pushing through. Every time you push through that discomfort feeling, you're building the habit of pushing through, and that will then become the habit. And that's the big thing for me, it has been making the the push through the habit instead of the the procrastinate the habit or instead of the not showing up for myself the habit.

Claudia [00:55:35]:

Well, thank you so much for such an incredible conversation around Perfectionism and procrastination, definitely, like, something that I've struggled with for so long. Everyone listening, we hope you thought it was time well spent. Thanks for being here with us.

Hannah [00:55:54]:

We would love to hear all about your procrastination struggles. I'd really love for you to send us a message on Instagram at weatherproofpodcast. Tell us the ways that you've struggled with it, the ways that you've overcome it, or maybe the things in this episode that have resonated see and that you wanna implement in your life.

Claudia [00:56:15]:

As always, share with a friend, follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts, And keep track of us on Instagram and YouTube.

Hannah [00:56:23]:

Happy adventuring.