Mastering the Art of Layering: Weatherproof Clothing Strategies for Outdoor Adventures

Sweating on the uphill and then freezing at the top? Resigned to the fact, this just how it is when you’re outside? High output adventures can be a constant juggle between too hot and too cold. While we dont have all the answers, maybe what we’ve learnt in our years in the backcountry, might just help you too!

Throughout this episode we discuss:

The art of knowing yourself and anticipating your needs, from a clothing perspective. This simple awareness will go along way toward being comfortable in the backcountry.

Suffering due to inappropriate clothing choices can (and should) be avoided with a little intention

You dont have to have a lot of clothing, just the right clothing.

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Transcript

Hannah [00:00:00]:

Sweating on the uphill and then freezing at the top, resigned to the fact that this is just how it is when you're outside. High output adventures can be a constant juggle between too hot and too cold. While we don't have all the answers, maybe what we've learned in our years in the backcountry might just help you too.

Claudia [00:00:19]:

Welcome to Weatherproof.

Hannah [00:00:20]:

We are your hosts, Hannah.

Claudia [00:00:22]:

And Claudia.

Hannah [00:00:24]:

Join us as we talk about the raw, real, and relatable elements of outdoor adventure.

Claudia [00:00:29]:

Before we get into that, we'd like to ask you to join our email list at weatherproofpodcast.com and to hit that follow button wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're watching us on YouTube, hit that like button and subscribe.

Hannah [00:00:40]:

We are recording on the unceded territory of the Squamish and Lil'wat Nations. We acknowledge and honor the stewards of this land on which we live, work, and play.

Claudia [00:00:49]:

Okay. So particularly In the outdoor recreation field, we hear so much about layering systems. And the layering system essentially refers to the layers of clothing that you're wearing. I think one of the biggest things for me when I think about clothing and layering systems is that There's so much information out there about how to dress and what to wear, and that stuff is easily found On the Internet, we're not reinventing the wheel. However, I think so much suffering happens For a couple big reasons, we don't wanna go to the effort of doing the thing that we need to do in order to be more comfortable. And so we're we're in this weird way willingly contributing to our own suffering, and I get frustrated when people kinda shrug their shoulders, and they're like, oh, yeah. No. That's that's just what it means to be recreating in in the outdoors.

Claudia [00:01:46]:

That suffering is is just part of the package. And I'm like, no. It doesn't it doesn't have to be. It's Recognizing what does and doesn't work for you, having the right clothing, and then wearing it Accordingly. So I think my big intention in this episode is to just make sure that people recognize that We can alleviate a lot of our own suffering based on the layering systems that we adopt and then the way that we use them when we're in the field.

Hannah [00:02:17]:

And between people those systems are so different because everyone runs at a totally different temperature. I have a super narrow thermostat. I get hot super easily when I'm when I'm moving. As soon as I start Hiking uphill, like, I start to warm up pretty quickly, and then I get so cold when I get to the top and it's windy and I'm a bit sweaty and I cool down really quickly. So for me, I know that my system has to be quick and easy to put on and off. Otherwise, I'm just faffing around all the time, taking layers on and off because I'm cold and I put it on, and then 5 minutes later I'm hot and I wanna take it off, and then It gets a bit windy and I wanna put it back on again, and then I get hot, so I take it off, and then it's raining, so I put it back on. So I know for me, I need stuff that's super accessible, easy to put on and off that I don't have to faff around with too much because, yeah, my thermostat's just so narrow.

Claudia [00:03:18]:

Yeah. So, Hannah, you're bringing up a a couple really important concepts here. One is that the reason we adopt a layering system Is so that you can really easily customize what you're wearing and how much you're wearing based On your change in activity levels. During high output, high exertion Periods of activity, we're going to delayer as much as the elements and our physical exertion allows. And then when we get into periods of rest, whether that's, just a quick water break or a lunch break or maybe we get into camp and we're starting to set up for the night, we're gonna start adding those layers back on to trap the heat that we've generated through Travel or movement so that we can keep it insulated, and we can stay warm as we head into our period of inactivity.

Hannah [00:04:17]:

And that's something that experience has really changed for me, is the quick changing. So I used to wear way too much when I started out because I was cold. I'm thinking specifically of ski touring, but also hiking. I'm cold, so I'm gonna wear my mid layer puffy, And then I resist taking it off when I get hot because I don't wanna slow everyone down, and, you know, it's a bit of a faff. I mean, we only just got started, so Fine. I'll suffer for a bit, and then I get too sweaty because I didn't stop and take it off. And then getting to the top, I'm The same if we stop for a snack break, and I won't put my layers back on because, again, I don't wanna slow everyone down. It's just Faff, I'll be fine, and then I get really cold, and then I find it really hard to warm up.

Hannah [00:05:05]:

And so as I've spent more and more time touring in the backcountry, Much better at knowing generally speaking, be bold, start cold works for me, so I will start with a lot less layers than I used to. But if I am really cold, I'll wear a warm layer and then just take it off as soon as I start to get warm instead of waiting until I'm really hot and really have to take it off. And then I'm way quicker at as soon as we stop, just throwing that warm layer back on so that I'm keeping that warmth in rather than faffing around doing whatever else you need to do or not doing it because, oh, it's fine. Just that knowing now how my body works and how I feel the best, just quicker decisions. I guess it's anticipating anticipating how I'm gonna feel in 5 minutes instead of waiting until I feel that way, and then, well, it's too late. I'm freezing.

Claudia [00:05:53]:

Yeah. This idea that it's not enough to have the right clothing and the right layering systems in place. You also have to Actually use them. And I love that you said be bold, start cold. That's an expression that we use So much or that I've used so much in the past for outdoor education. Most of the trips that I've been on have been with High school age boys and their thermostats operate on a totally different level Than mine. But this idea of be bold, start cold, you you are intentionally Starting on out in an uncomfortable position, knowing, anticipating that within 15 minutes, your body's gonna be warming itself up, Firing on all cylinders, and you'll be good to go. And you won't have to stop the group.

Claudia [00:06:49]:

You won't have to hold anybody up. You won't have to After all of the faff that happens at the trailhead, then stop again to faff some more when you've only just really gotten into the flow Of the activity or of the movement. And I think, like you said, it takes a lot of experience to know what works for us and for our bodies and for our rhythms And for the groups that we go out with, it's all about listening to our bodies, making choice recognizing when we've made the wrong choice and course correcting, And then consolidating that learning for the next time.

Hannah [00:07:25]:

And it's useful too as you get more experience and spend a bit more time out there. It's just like changing it out, trying different things. Everyone kind of talks about hard shells, and that's what a lot of people use for ski touring. But one thing that I added to my touring kit A little while ago was a soft shell, and it's changed the game for me. It feels stupid to have 2 jackets, and I probably don't always need to, but For me, it's like, I don't know, peace of mind knowing that I've got a full waterproof jacket in there. But my soft shell Wearing that on the way up when it's lightly snowing or a little bit windy has just made the biggest difference. Because My softshell's obviously so much more breathable than my hardshell jacket, so I'm not getting as hot and sweaty, but I just have that extra layer. Because I used to get stuck between wearing my puffy or my hardshell and being too hot or just being in my base layer and being too cold, Challenging my thinking on, like, oh, that feels unnecessary.

Hannah [00:08:27]:

I already have something that kind of fulfills that purpose, and just committing to taking the extra jacket. And I played around with it once and was like, oh, this is this is a game changer for me. I find soft shells the best for is tree bombs. Like, when you don't want your hardshell on because It's not actually snowing, but then every now and again, you get snow dumped on your head from a tree. And you're just in your base layer, and it gets wet, and that sucks.

Claudia [00:08:53]:

Yeah. Yeah. And your soft shell can be a layer that you sacrifice. If it gets totally soaking wet, it's not kind of an essential piece.

Hannah [00:09:00]:

Yeah. Totally.

Claudia [00:09:02]:

And that's where I can see the minimalist side of you being like, oh, well, this soft shell is kind of this weird hybrid between my insulating layer and my Waterproofing layer. And, like, if I'm looking to shed weight, like, that's probably the first thing that's gonna go, but It serves a really useful purpose. And for someone who tends to get cold while They're moving. I would say it's a great layer.

Hannah [00:09:29]:

One of the things that I find really helpful is understanding why. Why do we have different kinds of layers that you may wanna take on a trip. And so there it's like 4 key ways that we lose heat. The first one is radiation. You've snuggled up to your partner in bed at night and felt their, like, warmth radiating out of them. That is you radiating heat. And we prevent that loss by wearing insulation. And then conduction is touching cold things.

Hannah [00:09:59]:

So, like, Having cold boots on, sitting straight on the snow, so things like wearing warm socks helps to prevent your skin being directly on your cold boots. Convection is how we lose heat through wind and water, like, to sweat. So we wanna wear a windproof layer to stop us losing heat through convection. And then evaporation is the one that can be tricky to manage, and that is losing heat through sweating, which is literally our body's way to to try and cool us down. So wearing a tight fitting base layer is really important for the evaporation element because If we have a baggy base layer and we've got space between our skin and that base layer, the sweat will still be evaporating off our skin, and that will make us colder. Whereas having that base layer that's skin tight means that the sweat goes into your base layer, and your base layer will still keep you warm even though it's wet.

Claudia [00:10:59]:

Most of this technical clothing is highly engineered to serve the purpose that it states it's designed for. And so typically what happens is if your layers or garments are defective, it Is I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 95% of the time, human error. So that moisture wicking base layer that you're wearing isn't doing the job, it's not wicking. Well, it's potentially that it's too big for you, And it's too baggy, and it's not actually getting enough of an opportunity to wick the sweat off your body because it's not actually touching your body. The other one that falls into that category too is down. So often, folks will opt for a down insulating layer. The way that down keeps you warm is your body generates the heat first. That warm air lofts The down in the baffles, so in the compartments that are sewn into your jacket, and that loft traps the heat in those baffles against your body.

Claudia [00:12:11]:

If your down is compressed, so it's, like, trapped underneath your tight, Waterproof hardshell, it's not gonna get the same loft. It's not going to be able to do the job that it's meant to do Because we've squished it underneath all of these other layers. And so when we're thinking about those things, thinking about the activities that we're doing, We wanna make some intentional choices about how we fit these garments in order to allow them to serve their purpose. Because you and I live and recreate in the Pacific Northwest, we got 4 seasons, we get a ton of precipitation, we get different kinds of precipitation, But typically, we know we're going to get wet. So thinking about maybe buying a outer hardshell that's It's got a little bit more room to it so that we can fit our down underneath it knowing that we want to optimize that opportunity for loft in our down jackets. That might be something we decide to do.

Hannah [00:13:09]:

My belay jacket. So, like, my big down puffy that definitely cannot fit under my hardshell. And it that's kind of for those negative 20 degree days where it's not snowing. It's clear. I'm not particularly worried about getting wet because I'm not gonna take jacket if I'm gonna get wet because I can't really fit it under my hardshell. And so my belay jacket is perfect for throw it over my hardshell, Zip it up. It keeps me nice and warm. When I'm done with it, shove it back in my pack, then throw it back over my hardshell.

Hannah [00:13:41]:

So I'm not, like, taking my hardshell on and off or, like, By fitting around with layers, it just, like, fits over the top of everything.

Claudia [00:13:47]:

I think as the name belay jacket would suggest, it was designed for People who are belaying climbers. So when you're belaying, you're doing very little activity. You're just standing there freezing your butt off. And if you happen to be belaying someone who's ice climbing, for instance, you're typically in temperatures that are So cold that you're not worried about precipitation. So that that dense, massive down layer Makes a lot of sense. You're at rest, and you're in situations where the temperatures warrant that amount of insulation. But if you're winter camping out here and, you know, you're in a snow shelter or, of course, you're in a tent, if you have room for a belay jacket, That is a genius thing to bring with you because those evenings get cold, and now you have a little bit of extra insulation against, you know, really cold evenings. And you can stay and hang out and Be comfortable.

Hannah [00:14:47]:

And I bought it just after doing my ASD 2 and my Keras rescue course in the space of a few weeks, where You just end up standing around in the snow learning, freezing your butt off for a few days. And so I now have that for any future courses I do, and that would be a huge tip, I would say, to anybody that is planning to do any of those Backcountry courses in the winter, get a belay jacket, borrow 1 from a friend, something big puffy that you can just, like, throw over stuff while you're standing around.

Claudia [00:15:21]:

It's such a great tip. As an outdoor educator, there have been lots of winter programs that I've been on where I've brought My full length down parka, like, it's essentially a sleeping bag. And I always Used to overestimate how much activity I was doing while I was teaching, and It only took 1 really terribly cold, terribly uncomfortable trip in, guiding capacity To change my mind and start making space for those kinds of major layers. Because when you are standing around facilitating things, When you're not the one doing the learning, when you're not the one doing the activity, it can get really cold really quick, and Then all sorts of issues arise. Right? You're not as patient. You're not as Stoked. Your hands and your feet stop moving. And so thinking those things through and making those decisions accordingly Really is gonna help us stave off some of that unnecessary suffering.

Claudia [00:16:27]:

We're kind of going outside in, which is awesome. I love it because typically we talk about base layers and work our way outward. But we've talked about belay jacket. We've talked about hard shells. We've talked about Softshells, what do you wear next? Like, what's in your kit?

Hannah [00:16:44]:

I have a synthetic puffy. It's old, and it Still does the job. It's got the, like, polar fleece under the arms, so it's pretty good for Output, like, I can wear it while I'm hiking, whereas, like, my puffy belay jacket, I can't wear it for walking more than about 5 steps before I get too hot. And that's generally what I use as my mid layer. I do have a fleece, but my fleece is way too bulky to really fit in any kind of backpack that I'm taking into the backcountry, but that is something that I am gonna get this year because Fleeces can be really good for high output activity. They have a little bit more of a, like, wicking nature, like moisture management.

Claudia [00:17:30]:

And they're so breathable. Right? Like, that is fleece's number one asset is it's so breathable.

Hannah [00:17:36]:

And you can get Different kinds of material in fleece. Some fleece is more close knit, so it's got a little bit more of that wind resistance. Some of it's, like, way more open knit, so I think I'll get a little bit more of, like, a a closer knit fleece for ski touring this year. The recommendation is to get something that's slim fitting if you're using it in higher output because it just means that it manages moisture and all of that stuff a bit better. So that's gonna be something that I'm gonna try adding to my touring kit and just seeing how playing around with that goes for me.

Claudia [00:18:08]:

A Close fitting fleece is a great option from a layering standpoint because it's super versatile.

Hannah [00:18:15]:

The thing with insulating mid layers is You can kinda choose between down, synthetic, fleece, merino. There's a few different schools of thought into what constitutes a mid layer. You often have a base layer and then a kind of mid layer, your your thicker merino, your thinner fleece, and then a more insulating mid layer would be like your down or your synthetic of jackets. The things to keep in mind are things like down doesn't do well when it gets wet. Even waterproof, like, treated down that kind of says that it is good in the wet. Once it actually gets wet, it's useless. And If you've ever been out in the rain in your pro 3 layer Gore Tex jacket, you know that There is a limit to what is waterproof. If you're out all day in the rain, it doesn't matter how good your jacket is.

Hannah [00:19:10]:

Unless you're wearing rubbers, You're gonna get wet. And so in those situations, having down, even if you're wearing it under your great Gore Tex jacket, It's gonna get wet, and then it's gonna be kinda useless. So keeping in mind what region you're in, what kind of activity you're doing. When it's colder here, down's great because the snow falls as snow instead of rain. When it's wetter, synthetics tends to be a bit better. And then the other consideration for that is depending on what I'm doing, I will often wear a really thin merino base layer and then my synthetic jacket, which means that I'm getting sweaty in it. And so I wouldn't want that layer that close to my skin to be down because it's Gonna get wet just purely from me being a sweaty human.

Claudia [00:19:59]:

Typically, the way that down jackets are constructed Doesn't really allow for a lot of breathability because they're meant to be trapping in that warm air. They don't Take into consideration, like, release valves or outlets, and so I pretty highly recommend not Turning to down for a mid layer, the exceptions to that would be vests. But I definitely would Think about synthetic insulation for true mid layers, literally in this area of the world. Like, my down does not come out of my waterproofed clothing bag unless I can 100% guarantee that it's gonna stay dry. So we talked about base layers in the context that you wear a thin base layer and then your insulating jacket. Do you have a preference? Wool, synthetic, something else?

Hannah [00:20:56]:

I wear merino probably because I'm from New Zealand. And just the, like, Their non smelliness, not even just for multi day trips, but the whole time pretty much that I've lived in Whistler, I've worked in some capacity in an outdoor job, and I do not have the time or care to wash my base layers every day. And so I will wear my merino base layer to work for a couple of days, and it doesn't smell because it's merino, whereas synthetic gets gross pretty quickly, and so that's why my preference generally is merino. Obviously, merino is a lot more expensive. I also always get moth holes in my merino. It doesn't matter what I do. Every season when I put something on, there'll be, like, a new hole in it. So it's just not as It's not as durable because of either insects eating it or it catches on stuff.

Hannah [00:21:49]:

It wears through easier, so it's more expensive and you have to replace it more often, which is kinda it kinda sucks. I find maroona really nice over over a range of temperatures. Like, I will wear my long sleeve merino in the summer when I'm hiking to protect me from the sun as well as in the winter when it's freezing cold and I need the warmth. The blends that they have today are are not the wool Bass layers that I used to wear as a kid in New Zealand, where I don't even think that was merino then. It was just wool, and that was so itchy and awful. Whereas now, like, merino stuff is so comfortable. Yeah.

Claudia [00:22:27]:

Yeah. I mean, I think about what explorers like, the 1st explorers and Folks who were out putting up first ascents and scoping things out way before While modern clothing technology existed, and I just think, like, they were hardcore. Like, the weight and the discomfort and the Stiffness. And we've come such a long way in terms of technical clothing that there's no reason for us not to be comfortable. There's no reason for us To not be using this stuff as effectively as we could be because it's so good in comparison to what Used to be around.

Hannah [00:23:08]:

When we're in the Conrad Kane hunt in the bugaboos, like a month ago, there's plaques up on the wall and big storyboards about Conrad Kane, and he was a Swiss guide that came to Canada in his twenties and did a bunch of first ascents and guided trips through New Zealand and Canada. It kind of flips between the 2. And yeah. Just even the photos in of him and his guests, and We, like, stress about or me personally, stress about, like, a 100 grams and trying to be lightweight and whatever. And this of stuff they carried around. I'm like, gosh. We're so soft. Yeah.

Claudia [00:23:47]:

Yeah. Always struggle with Marino. Like, I'm a sweaty, smelly person, and I struggle because I want to go the merino route, but I find that the synthetic base layers have better compression. They hold up better. They don't, like, slip and Slide around under my other layers, and in that respect, there are times where I've traded out my Base layers entirely for, like, running tights. And there's something about the compression in it being that first layer against my skin that I I Really need it to stay or want it to stay in place, and that's what I find tricky about merino base layers on my bottoms. Yeah. Top, love, Marina.

Hannah [00:24:35]:

Yeah. It doesn't stretch as well. It doesn't hold its shape as well. It takes longer to dry. It has its restrictions, for sure.

Claudia [00:24:43]:

And I think those are the those are the things that, again, come down to personal preference. Try a couple things out. Borrow friends, stuff, see what works for you, see what you like, see what you don't like, but take it all for a a test run or a spin and and then make some decisions about how you're gonna invest in those base layers, because they are essential.

Hannah [00:25:06]:

And there's a bunch of other natural fibers that are coming out, like tensile and rayon and modal that are made of bamboo and wood pulp. And so Those are generally not as warm as wool. They're not quite as good at moisture wicking, but they're much better than, obviously, cotton, slightly less smelly than synthetics, not quite as odorless as wool. There's so much development in this area. Because, obviously, the simple fact that as more and more people get into the outdoors, There is more and more money in the outdoors, and so there is more incentive for outdoor brands to make bigger varieties of clothing, and more activity specific clothing because people are spending their money on getting into the outdoors. And so That's why we have seen such a big change in things like synthetic insulated jackets and that kind of, like, mid layer category has grown and changed so much. Like, there's so many micro differences between all the different garments now, because so much more money is going into into making all this gear because because people are spending it.

Claudia [00:26:19]:

And I think there's a major drive on behalf of these clothing companies to really educate their customers On what each garment is meant to do and what the various fabrics and and the composition of the garment is designed for, And it can be really easy to just be inundated with information and not actually take it any of it in.

Hannah [00:26:44]:

So, obviously, we've got our 3 layers and and what you wear just to keep your body warm. But some of the things that I found really helpful is I have a merino headband, because again, I have a narrow temperature window, So I get really hot easily. And you, obviously, you can lose a lot of heat through head, hands, feet. And oh, sometimes I find beanies too hot, or a toque as we call it in this country. And so just that little headband that's not as, like, thick and bulky as Putting a buff just on your head is perfect. I I love it. It's just one of those random things that I bought once that might fit me. Yeah.

Claudia [00:27:26]:

Nice.

Hannah [00:27:27]:

What are some of your, like, random favorite things that don't fit into a typical category that you take into backcountry?

Claudia [00:27:35]:

Yeah. I get made fun of all the time because my hands are my kryptonite. So once my hands get wet and cold, they stop working, and then My kind of mental game really suffers. I find it much harder to stay engaged once My hands are toast, and so I purchased a pair of Japanese fishing gloves. And the reason I get made fun of is because they Look like dish gloves on the outside. They've got a bit more of a textured rubber on the outside, so things, like, really grip to them, Which makes sense if you're thinking about them in a fishing context, but then they're fleeced on the inside. And so I get The waterproofing and the protection of what are essentially rubber dish gloves with the warmth and coziness of fleece on the inside, They also fit my hands so well that I can still untie knots. I can start stoves.

Claudia [00:28:33]:

I can start a lighter. From a functional standpoint, they are excellent. They're hideous.

Hannah [00:28:40]:

That's the hardest thing is dexterity whilst keeping your hands warm. Ask any any carpenter that works outside in the winter in Whistler, and they'll tell you of the of the struggles.

Claudia [00:28:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing is I love the concept of a buff, and I bring one with me all the time. Unfortunately, because I am a sweaty person, if I'm wearing it around my neck while I'm doing any kind of activity, It just soaks up my sweat, and then there's something about it lying against the back of my neck that just, like, Really gives me the heebie jeebies. And so it's, like, again, one of those things that comes with me all the time. It usually serves other purposes. Like, it Doubles as a towel. I've used it as, like, a night mask Oh, I've got

Hannah [00:29:31]:

an eye mask all the time. I put it on my head, and then I pull it over my eyes. It's the best.

Claudia [00:29:35]:

Yeah. So great for other things. Warmth, not for me.

Hannah [00:29:40]:

And talking about wet things against your neck, What do you do with your hair? Or particularly snowy days where, like obviously, if it's raining, you've got your head shell on and your hood up, and you're probably keeping it dry that way. But on days when it's, like, a bit snowy, so you're not necessarily totally covered, what are you doing with your hair?

Claudia [00:29:59]:

Yeah. Hair management is a tricky one for me because my hair tends to be quite wild, and I don't love Shoving it in to places, like, especially if you're doing anything that involves exertion, like, my zips are undone. It's Kind of wild. It's everywhere. It's in a side pony like it is at the moment. It's hard to manage, but I find that it's one of those things. If my hair Gets wet or my head gets wet, it can really sap heat from my body quickly. And it's one of those things that I really try to manage even though I don't love it.

Claudia [00:30:34]:

Now if I can tuck it under a hood or if I can convince myself to wear a hat or I can keep it out of the way and it doesn't get wet. I'm much better off. The really cool thing that I saw on Instagram not long ago was The woman who made Kula Cloths, the pea cloths, she's designed and is selling a It's a neck gaiter, and it's got 2 holes on either side, like, kind of by your clavicles where you can pull braids out, Or if there's 1 hole in the back where you can pull, like, a single ponytail out. And it was designed with this idea of hair management in mind So you don't have to have your hair, like, sticking up and out of the top of your neck gaiter or Shooting out the bottom of your jacket, it can just be organized and lying nicely against you. It's not shoved into The neck gaiter itself. So if that sounds like your jam, go check her out.

Hannah [00:31:36]:

As much as it makes me feel like I'm a kid back at church, I have embraced braiding my hair for Doraadventure. I cut a, like, A palm sized dreadlock out of the back of my hair a couple of years ago when I was guiding in the winter, because I had a full face helmet that I was, like, lifting up and down a 100 times a day. And I have pretty long hair and fine hair and curly hair. And so it just, like, just knotted at the back of my head. Oh my god. And same as you, like, shoving it down my jacket isn't particularly comfortable, then it's just, like, everywhere and it It's really annoying, and so I find just braiding it really is the is for me the solution that keeps it mostly out of the way, prevents it from generally getting too wet because it's kinda easier to tuck away.

Claudia [00:32:30]:

We haven't talked about this too too much, but there is a real battle between getting wet from the inside versus getting wet from the outside and how we make decision Accordingly. Do you have any thoughts?

Hannah [00:32:46]:

On hiking trips when it's not that cold, I generally just, like, give up and just get wet. If it's raining and

Claudia [00:32:53]:

On the outside.

Hannah [00:32:54]:

Yeah. Like, if it's raining and we're hiking and it's warm enough, there's no point in wearing a hardshell to keep Myself dry because I'm just gonna get sweaty anyway, so I just, like, embrace it. Take the hardshell off. Just get wet. But, yeah, in the winter, that's part of why I've kinda changed my sister around a bit and got a lot better at making quick decisions when I'm changing layers, when I'm changing activity, whether going from uphill or downhill, stopping, whatever. Because otherwise, I'm a sweaty human. And going uphill, I would get sweaty if I was wearing too many layers, and then I'm wet, and then I'm cold. But here, I think the hardest part is when it's like that wet West Coast snow where You need your jacket on because it's just wet snowing.

Claudia [00:33:39]:

Or even those times of year and they're, Like frequent, where it's, like, 3 degrees and raining.

Hannah [00:33:47]:

Yeah.

Claudia [00:33:48]:

Anywhere between 0 and 3 degrees is and raining, I'm convinced, the coldest to conditions.

Hannah [00:33:55]:

Well and it is such a concern of hypothermia. Like, if you are wet, it really doesn't take that long. Even if it's warmer. If there's a bit of wind and you're wet and you don't have the right clothing, it doesn't take long to get hypothermia, even in summer. So it's it's managing those layers, like having your just your thin base layer on and your hardshell jacket with your pit zips undone and trying to manage it that way. It's a juggle for sure.

Claudia [00:34:24]:

Totally. When I first started touring and people were like, yeah. So when you're going uphill, you wanna go at a pace where you're really minimizing your sweat.

Hannah [00:34:33]:

Yes. I I hate that line. Like, what kind of not sweating are you doing?

Claudia [00:34:39]:

Also, like, I'm sweating just looking at the hill, let alone making my way up it. Like, what are you talking about?

Hannah [00:34:45]:

I wonder if it's a male or female difference. Do women Sweat more in harder activities? I don't know. But I definitely have heard that a lot. Yeah. Just go in a place where you don't sweat. I'm like, that's. I'm not going then.

Claudia [00:34:59]:

Yeah. That'd be me standing still. We talked a little bit earlier too about the expression be bold, start cold. The other expression that you hear a lot about in the context of clothing, particularly technical clothing, is cotton kills. You were just talking about hypothermia. One of the reasons cotton kills is that once it gets wet, It no longer can keep you warm, and it's highly unlikely that it will dry in the field. And so as we know, when we have wet things against our skin, we tend to get cold. If we remain in that state for long enough, we're essentially inviting hypothermia.

Hannah [00:35:46]:

So And with cotton, even if you've got another layer on, like, even if you're even if you've got cotton against your skin and and a puffy jacket, like, try it sometime. Wear a cotton against your skin and go for a run, and wear a wear an insulated jacket over the top, and you will be called.

Claudia [00:36:04]:

In relation to cotton, the thing I see the most in the field with students is cotton socks. Yeah. And then their feet get wet or their boots get wet, and then they wonder why their feet are so cold. Unfortunately, cotton is what we call a warm hand material, So it feels warm and cozy when we put it on. Most technical synthetic fabrics have a cold hand or a cool hand. So when you put them on, they don't give you that, like, warm, fuzzy feeling. They they make you feel cold. That shiny, cold, Slick or slippery Yeah.

Claudia [00:36:39]:

Kind of feel. Yeah. So people want to wear cotton because it's warm and cozy. It just doesn't have the technical capabilities to keep you warm when it gets wet. The other thing I wanted to talk about, and you touched on this earlier, Hannah, was The environmental and the ethical considerations that go into what we choose to buy. And you mentioned fleece. Fleece is a great one because these days, almost everybody is using recycled plastic bottles to make their fleece. So there's a really kind of nice opportunity to recycle in that sense.

Claudia [00:37:16]:

But thinking about ways that, especially if You're still growing or your kids are still growing. We can access the secondhand market. There's so much out there that still has a lot of life To live in the field and when we know it's just gonna get wet and torn and stretched And smelly. I think there's such a strong argument for that secondhand market.

Hannah [00:37:41]:

And the other thing with environmental particularly if the core considerations is your wool and your down. I wanna premise that by saying that comes with a lot of privilege, like, being able to choose what gear you wanna buy. Often, the cheapest stuff is just not gonna be, like, ethical treatment of animals. And if that's What you can afford and what you need to get out there. Like, I don't know how to say this appropriately, but, like, do it.

Claudia [00:38:09]:

It just comes down to your priorities. Right? We talk about this all the time. It's like, you need to do what works for you and Totally. Depending on on what you prioritize, those are gonna be Decisions that you will make.

Hannah [00:38:20]:

But if you can, definitely look into where your wool and your down is coming from. There are some awful practices out there for both for both, natural fibers, so just do your research because voting with money works. Buy from the companies that are treating their animals ethically in the making of our adventure garments.

Claudia [00:38:44]:

One of the other tips, I came across in my time in guiding was this idea of sacred dries. And sacred dries are a full set of base layers, top and bottom, An extra pair of socks, an extra toque, and they are kept in a waterproofed bag. My sacred drives live in a, garbage bag lined stuff sack, and they go to the bottom of my pack. And the reason they're called sacred dries is because, ideally, they remain in that stuff sack at the bottom of my bag the entire trip, and they never get touched. The only reason I would ever turn to my sacred drives would be if I was in a situation where we were Worried about hypothermia. We were cold, and we were all wet, and we were seriously concerned about hypothermia. Then I would haul them out. They're kind of like the last resort, full set of dry clothing.

Hannah [00:39:44]:

And are these you're taking them on day trips as well as multi days, or are you talking more just about multi

Claudia [00:39:49]:

It really depends on where I'm going on day trips. If I'm getting super remote and I'm concerned about possible extraction, then, yeah, I might Tuck them in. They don't take up much space. And my sacred drizer wool, knowing that I could throw them on and then put wet Insulating layers on on top, and they would still do the trick. But, typically, they are a multi day Overnight expedition packing item, and they came from my time paddling. So they're particularly Helpful when you're in a water based activity scenario, knowing that you might capsize or all sorts of things might happen where you end up, like, Fully submerged or your stuff ends up fully submerged, and then they come in handy.

Hannah [00:40:35]:

Totally. The advice I always got and the approach in New Zealand is making sure that you have those extra layers for when something goes wrong. My thing is to always take that one extra than what you think you'll need. In the situation where I got injured in the Duffy, We almost ended up spending the night in a snow cave, and I had almost not taken my big puffy that day because I had my synthetic insulating jacket, and I was like, I'm I'm not gonna need my puffy. We're turning into a hut and back out, like, it's gonna be fine. And if we had needed to stay the night, I would have very much been grateful for having my down puffy. I would have survived without it because it wasn't that cold, but that extra layer so that if you or someone else gets injured and you're having to Sit there and wait for a while. You've got that layer to throw on them or on you to to keep you warm.

Claudia [00:41:25]:

Yep. Love it. What about dirty clothing and things like deodorant to repel smell?

Hannah [00:41:36]:

I always take deodorant in the backcountry even though I'm such a lightweight, don't wanna waste room, space, all that kind of stuff person. But I just, like I'm so sweaty and gross that that's one of my little luxuries is a 100% tight during but I also wear the same clothes every day. The more time I spend in the backcountry, the longer I will wear the same clothes for. I used to kind of you know, if it was more than a couple of days. I'd take a change or whatever. Now it's like, I'll wear the same shirt every day. It's fine. And then I just have a different set for going to bed.

Hannah [00:42:10]:

But, yeah, I wear the same stuff every day.

Claudia [00:42:12]:

Yeah. Awesome. I also tend to wear the same stuff. I don't bring deodorant, But I do bring baby wipes or, like, a quick dry towel. And then I'm I'm always kind of, like, washing up

Hannah [00:42:27]:

Yeah.

Claudia [00:42:28]:

Before I go to bed?

Hannah [00:42:30]:

I don't bring baby wipes. But something I learned from a client recently who Works at a university and runs one of the science departments, and the students do a bunch of studies every year. And one of the students did a study on whether washing is better than, like baby wipes, basically.

Claudia [00:42:53]:

Oh, yeah.

Hannah [00:42:54]:

And this was in a hospital setting. What kills more bacteria and what is, like, cleaner? Washing patients or with soap and water or using wipes, and wipes were actually better. So I was like, Oh, maybe I will start taking wipes into the backcountry because I've always thought that I was just kind of a waste. But, yeah, wipes actually apparently get you cleaner than than soap and water in that specific scenario. Like, we're talking about patients in bed here. We're not talking about, you know, having a proper shower. I'll always have a proper shower for baby wipes, but but they do work.

Claudia [00:43:28]:

Interesting. I love hearing about what works for folks and what they love and how they've come to those Conclusion. So awesome. Well, that's it, folks. Thank you for listening. We hope it was time well spent.

Hannah [00:43:42]:

We would love to hear your thoughts on today's episode and all of your adventure stories. Message us at weatherproof podcast on Instagram.

Claudia [00:43:50]:

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